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[NF] Why Do NFs Apologize So Much?

JivinJeffJones

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I don't think I apologize that much. But, like FL, I will frequently abandon an argument very quickly in the face of opposition, unless I really care about the subject and have already thought it through carefully. However, I only really do this with arguments which become personal. If the argument is more abstract I have no problem with arguing for the sake of arguing. The reasons I tend to quickly abandon arguments fall into 2 categories:

1) I realize I'm wrong (quite infrequent, to my shame).
2) I realize I could be wrong and need to give it more thought.
3) I still think I'm right but need time to put my finger on the fault in the other person's argument.
4) I know I'm right but can't be bothered trying to prove it. Prefer to leave the other person to their ignorance (pretty frequent, to my shame).
 

Carebear

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Same as FL and triple-J except if I somehow get personally tangled in it all. A juicy ad hominem can do this for instance. The second I personally enter into the equation, it's like an alarm button is pushed and the entire system locks down in emergency mode. Fi takes full charge of Ne and uses 100% of it's power to scan for the limitless possibilities of what I could have done wrong instead of objectively taking in the situation. Since my Ne is extremely good at brainstorming for possibilities, I soon have a smorgasbord of possible things I fear I might have done wrong. At that point it's normally too tempting to back down, drop the flash and smoke grenade called "sorry" and escape the situation as quickly as possible in order to cool down, get back the use of rational thought and analyse wtf just happened.

I've got much better at not entering this state of emergency over the years, though, and really dislike it when others do it, especially if it's over things like "sorry you have to drive me home" etc. Extremely annoying. It's sending the message that they think you are a person who'd probably blow up or hold a grudge over a small thing like this, so they'd better try to appease you. But that's what you get when the judging function is introverted feeling; extremely self centered value judgements. (Unless you learn to counter this by actively engaging other functions to check Fi when it's freaking out.)
 

faith

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I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

:sadbanana:


I've noticed this happening a lot.

The pleasure I get from communicating a new idea pales in comparison to the displeasure I get from arguing.

I think it would be helpful if, in these situations, the NT would make his purpose clear: "That's an interesting idea; I'd like to explore it some. What if...? But if that's so, then... I don't see how that is possible if..." That way I understand exactly where the other person is coming from and what they are hoping to accomplish in this discussion. (i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)

It's also really helpful if I feel like I and the other person are on the same side, both of us looking to discover truth and gain understanding--rather than taking up competing sides and battling it out to see which side is better. I understand the usefulness of the competition, but I can't do it myself. If the NT is wanting my input on an idea, he'll get more thoughtful and honest responses if I don't feel like I'm being asked to compete.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

:sadbanana:
I value being able to discern a good idea regardless of how well it is communicated. My ideal is to be able to glean a 'good' idea from someone who is overly timid, rude, painstaking, or possessing any other communication flaw. I'm not always capable, but tend to admire this ability in others and work to sharpen it in myself. I weary of too much emphasis on packaging and style over thinking.
 

Eileen

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hmm. I don't think that I do this. One thing I've thought a bit about, and it might be explainable with the enneagram... but I am not a peacemaker. I don't like conflict, but I will definitely engage in it if I see it as necessary. I apologize if I've been unreasonable. I don't feel brutish at all if I have a strong negative reaction to something that violates my principles.
 
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(i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)

It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"
 

Lurker

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It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"

Well put.

Still, there are some NTs (XNTJs in particular) who like to throw "stupid" around, but abusive people come in every type. So.
 

Alienclock

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I tend to apologize because of several reasons.

1. I think I was wrong, and would like to get past it.
2. I feel I hurt someone, and I usually do not want to hurt people. I don't even want to think of them feeling hurt.
3. I want to let others know that I don't want to bother them, just as I would not like to be bothered. also, I would like to let others know that I appreciate them, and I don't want them to get all buggy.
4. I don't like the idea of bullying people, or overlooking someones feelings just to get a point across. Being smarter, and using it to dominate others, is bullying, just like being stronger, and using brute force to dominate others, is bullying.
5. I want people to like me, and not resent every single thing I do and say. Humility and apology can help.

I don't mind arguments, at all, however, I do not like hurting people.
I am not a jerk, I am a human.

sorry I can't be more clear and make it shorter and more succinct for some types. sorry. I shall now discipline myself. :shock: sorry for apologizing. :) sorry..
 

Carebear

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It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"

I agree 100%. And I understand it rationally. And online I normally get enough time and space to listen to my rational thoughts and calm myself. But the moment I get a feeling that this is a competition and is about me, the emergency program kicks in like a reflex and clouds my mind. All of a sudden it's about me, danger, danger!, get out!, *beep-beep-beep* eject! eject! *emergency, all personell evacuate the brain immediately*

Over time I've gotten better as mentioned, so focusing on it does help, but your advice is a bit like telling people that they must understand that panic never is a good solution in any crisis. Sure they understand it, but this understanding doesn't help them much when the crisis arrives and they find themselves running around screaming against their better judgement.
 

Crabapple

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I don't think I apologize that much. But, like FL, I will frequently abandon an argument very quickly in the face of opposition, unless I really care about the subject and have already thought it through carefully.... 4) I know I'm right but can't be bothered trying to prove it. Prefer to leave the other person to their ignorance (pretty frequent, to my shame).

I do very much the same. Except I'm not ashamed of it. I can be disputatious. It gets me nowhere. If someone doesn't appreciate what I have to contribute, so be it.

Giving in keeps my stress level down. That is often more important to me than proving a point. Most of the time, I don't feel like arguing. Especially if it gets hostile.

I am polite to others to avoid their anger. If they get angry, I also might. I prefer to stay cool, as I think I have a pretty bad temper.
 

s0532

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Maybe you're right. Once an INFP roommate and I went out to eat and the waitress completely screwed up our order. I was hesitant to complain myself cause I didn't want spit in my food, but I wasn't about to pay for something I didn't enjoy. She kept apologizing about her food when we sent it back and I asked why was she apologizing since she didn't do anything wrong. I did some apologizing of my own so maybe we were about equal, but she genuinely felt bad about sending her food back, whereas I was apologizing hoping I didn't find some extra spices in mine. But this same INFP almost bit my head off when we were discussing something, so I don't know.

Sometimes a well placed sincere apology helps calm an escalating situation.

yeah, I'd go with "maybe just the NFPs" too, but mostly I suspect this is largely another type myth in the making. And while I see it's sometimes a tactical motive, would guess generally it's more about issues with self-assertiveness, for those people who seem to have to apologize for being alive.
 

KMCE

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yeah, I'd go with "maybe just the NFPs" too, but mostly I suspect this is largely another type myth in the making.

I agree with the above. This is not really all about N and F types. It applies to the S types and the T types too.

Still, the question remains: Does it occur to the people who apologize excessively, that their frequent apology would make them appear less sincere and trustworthy in the social circle?

To these people, giving an apology is pretty much like telling a joke. It costs nothing, and it probably doesn't mean much to them. An apology just comes out of their mouth when the right button is pushed, like a bullet bursting out of an automatic rifle when you pull the trigger.

So, the question is, when they apologize, do they actually, really, honestly mean it? If they are "serial apologizers", people would have some lingering doubts. Because it could well be just a "casual, anything-can-do apology".
 

Jasz

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I've noticed this happening a lot.

The pleasure I get from communicating a new idea pales in comparison to the displeasure I get from arguing.

I think it would be helpful if, in these situations, the NT would make his purpose clear: "That's an interesting idea; I'd like to explore it some. What if...? But if that's so, then... I don't see how that is possible if..." That way I understand exactly where the other person is coming from and what they are hoping to accomplish in this discussion. (i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)

It's also really helpful if I feel like I and the other person are on the same side, both of us looking to discover truth and gain understanding--rather than taking up competing sides and battling it out to see which side is better. I understand the usefulness of the competition, but I can't do it myself. If the NT is wanting my input on an idea, he'll get more thoughtful and honest responses if I don't feel like I'm being asked to compete.

in my case, it is not about the usefulness of competition, maybe more the playfulness of argueing. if NF's check out, and don't play, that can be boring.
 

Carebear

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in my case, it is not about the usefulness of competition, maybe more the playfulness of argueing. if NF's check out, and don't play, that can be boring.

If NFs know it's just for play, my experience is they normally don't check out. But for them to know it's play, they normally need to feel certain they're appreciated by the people they're arguing with, regardless of the outcome of the argument, and it has to be kept at a impersonal level, or feelings come in the way and the stakes are raised too much for it to be worth it.

Why put lots on stake for a prize that's not really that big?
 

Jasz

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If NFs know it's just for play, my experience is they normally don't check out. But for them to know it's play, they normally need to feel certain they're appreciated by the people they're arguing with, regardless of the outcome of the argument, and it has to be kept at a impersonal level, or feelings come in the way and the stakes are raised too much for it to be worth it.

Why put lots on stake for a prize that's not really that big?

fair enough but play gets more interesting when it gets a little personal!
 

Carebear

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fair enough but play gets more interesting when it gets a little personal!

I agree, but at some point, the graphs of interesting and level of discomfort meet, and at that point, there's no longer much choice. The more or less involuntary backing down and covering your bases with apologies begin.

I hate it when it happens, but it's like some basic instinct suddenly awakes and takes over. NFs are a bit boring in this respect, but I don't see how it can be changed, and it's probably the price we pay for having the strengths we do.

Edit: Hm.. actually, I think it's not the point where the two graphs meet that's the critical one, but the point where the level of discomfort goes above a certain value. Hm.. it might be affected by level of interest, but at that point the level of interest needs to increase exponentially in order to keep us going. HM.. actually, it would probably be better to use lvl of interest and lvl of discomfort as axis and let the graph indicate chance of backing off. Hm... or...
 

Martoon

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I don't apologize as much as some NFs. But I'll willingly and happily abandon an argument upon encountering a little push-back.

I'll usually give one run-through of my side of the argument; if my position doesn't get any traction with the other party, then I'll drop it. I'm not going to spend a day typing messages to a stranger trying to tell him something he doesn't want to hear.

Arguing is a low priority with me. If anything, I need the other party to evince some obvious openmindedness and desire to hear more before I'll invest time and energy in an exchange.

Also, I don't feel bad backing off an argument. There's no loss of pride there. Since arguing is a low priority, my self-esteem isn't invested in the idea of winning or losing arguments.

FL

I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

:sadbanana:
I agree with MacG (why does that sound like a political slogan?). On the other hand, I really see FL's point. I'm very tired of the overwhelming number of people who debate with the intent of trying to convert everyone else to their position, and have no interest in testing their position or learning anything that might change their position for the better. They don't want to become more right, they just want to be right, even if it means being wrong.

Sadly, this seems to be the majority of people I've encountered, so if someone I don't know well starts an argument/debate, my working assumption is that that's how they are, until I see otherwise. My fear is that people who don't know me might think that I'm like that, which would be a reasonable initial assumption given what I said in the previous sentence. So yeah, I see FL's point.

IRL I actually do apologize too much. I was raised in a family of strong INFs - especially strong Fs. My apologizing too much is concentrated to my most personal relationships, but that has more to do with a history of rejection and abandonment issues than personality imo.
This is true. Toonia never does any waffling/excessive apology in her "outside", professional relationships. In fact, she maintains a very consistent, professional persona in her professional circles, and never has trouble telling people "no". I don't know how typical this is of NFs, since Toonia is an exceptional NF. She has a very well-developed T, but an even more developed F.

She does apologize for things she shouldn't to me, though. I find it charming rather than annoying. It really kills me when she apologizes for apologizing too much. :)
 

Totenkindly

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I agree with MacG (why does that sound like a political slogan?).

He might as well run. Every other jamoche on the face of the US seems to be tossing his hat in the ring nowadays, so why not the clown too? He'd fit in!

They don't want to become more right, they just want to be right, even if it means being wrong.

I am perfectly content to let them be wrong. :D

My fear is that people who don't know me might think that I'm like that, which would be a reasonable initial assumption given what I said in the previous sentence.

I do that too -- which is why I probably sound so placatory sometimes. If I know you, you're much more apt to hear the blunt raw problems I have with your argument and even some scathing sarcasm; if I don't know you, you're much more apt to hear the smoothed-out placatory version, simply because I want to get across that I'm not being an ass and that I've actually got positive intentions, since you don't know me yet and might misread me.

[IOW, I only treat my friends like crap.]

This is true. Toonia never does any waffling/excessive apology in her "outside", professional relationships. In fact, she maintains a very consistent, professional persona in her professional circles, and never has trouble telling people "no". I don't know how typical this is of NFs, since Toonia is an exceptional NF. She has a very well-developed T, but an even more developed F. She does apologize for things she shouldn't to me, though. I find it charming rather than annoying. It really kills me when she apologizes for apologizing too much.

This is a generalization, but when I look at INFJs, one of the "trademark" characteristics is how professional they are in either social or professional situations. They're pretty composed, together, with-it. "Professional" is actually the word I use to describe them. They seem to have a very clear sense of the boundaries, no real waffling on them, so they can say "yes" when appropriate and "no" when appropriate as well. Just so balanced and mature and know how to maintain the right sort of relationships with others.

Then, in their own private worlds, with the people they really love and cherish, they show the other more "flexy" and giving side of their natures, which is prone more to the typical NF excesses... and the apologies, etc.

Regardless, I agree with you that Toonie is quite an exceptional person. :wubbie:
 

logan235711

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Hey, thank-you everyone for posting so far--I'm sure some eyes have been opened as to the main feelings and causes towards those who apologize ^_^ I think I mostly apologize for a few reasons:

1. If I feel that apologizing will prevent someone from feeling as though they cannot express themselves openly with me.

2. To help create more harmony and less tension on an environment

3. As a tool to instigate change or sudden openess when I do so with others whom I normally do not apologize to often (i.e. they are not used to me apologizing, so when I do, it can seem sudden and draw their attention).

4. To save myself time, as not apologizing might waste more time (just being honest here people :p)

5. To test the limits of people and what situations might yield surprising results by doing so

6. Umm..The Other Stuff! :D

To be honest, I try not to apologize because 'I feel bad,' but because, then I feel worse--as though all I'm doing is saying 'sorry' not because I am sorry, but because I care more about myself than the other person. So when I apologize, I try to do more-so for the other person/people than myself--otherwise, my apology will have less meaning for myself because I lack the sincerity of its use towards others, but just as a tool to boost my own short-comings rather than confronting myself. So, perhaps in the end, I feel that if I apologize for myself even a bit, then I am running away from the real issues and also making it worse in the future for others who might have to deal with me on similar terms, or in similiar situations where the apology arose.
 
R

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I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

:sadbanana:

If you're putting up a lot of roadblocks to good ideas, then that's your problem. Not mine.

Anyway, if there is a clear and obvious wrong and right, then presumably the issue can easily be resolved by citing an appropriate authority and thus there's no reason to argue about it. (The other person can research the authority if they need to know more.) On the other hand, if there's no clear right and wrong, then for practical purposes it almost doesn't matter if the argument is resolved or not. Agree to disagree, and all that.

Example: If a religious person really wants to know about my beliefs as an atheist, then I'll give them a quick exposition. If, after that first exposition, the other party takes the approach of picking at every possible little flaw in my exposition, then I'm done arguing at that point. That critical approach can be (and frequently is) applied ad nauseum, and indeed there's no need to resolve that particular argument at all (atheists and believers live together just fine). Meantime I can think of lots more productive uses of my time than arguing an issue like that.

To be honest, I spent a lot of time in the past debating people on message boards oriented toward politics, religion, and social issues, and at the end I felt it was largely a waste of time. A little bit of that kind of debating can be recreational and informative; it's interesting to find out how much or how little one is able to influence others' thinking on subjects like that. But it quickly becomes a drag and kind of addicting in a negative way. I've come to appreciate the old saying that one should never debate politics, religion, and sex. By extension, I've even decided that it's not worth spending a lot of time debating anything that can't be resolved fairly quickly (e.g., by referring the other party to an authority and letting the other party do their own research on that basis).

Here's another way to put it:

I understand that an adversarial approach is the best way to debate things under certain circumstances (for example, in the courtroom where the two parties have direct and opposing interests with tangible rewards and punishments at stake, or in the workplace where hard choices have to be made on how to allocate limited material resources). But in my opinion an adversarial approach seems silly and artificial outside of those kinds of restricted frameworks. If I'm engaging in intellectual discourse on the Internet, then it seems more reasonable to me to take a scientific approach: i.e., take an information-gathering approach and willingly investigate alternative hypotheses. That can be done cooperatively, and I don't mind providing information for those who are genuinely curious about my viewpoint and/or asking my own questions about the viewpoints of others.

But if we can't investigate each other's viewpoint cooperatively, then let's just agree to disagree. In my experience, adversarial debates about intellectual points usually aren't productive. People say that they will be open-minded in an adversarial debate, but it rarely works out that way in practice. In my own experience, the adversarial approach has a momentum of its own that works against open-mindedness in practice. Like I say, I've done a lot of that kind of debating in the past, and eventually I decided that I have better things to do with my time than argue some abstract point on an adversarial basis.

FL
 
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