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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoon View Post
    I agree with MacG (why does that sound like a political slogan?). On the other hand, I really see FL's point. I'm very tired of the overwhelming number of people who debate with the intent of trying to convert everyone else to their position, and have no interest in testing their position or learning anything that might change their position for the better. They don't want to become more right, they just want to be right, even if it means being wrong.

    Sadly, this seems to be the majority of people I've encountered, so if someone I don't know well starts an argument/debate, my working assumption is that that's how they are, until I see otherwise. My fear is that people who don't know me might think that I'm like that, which would be a reasonable initial assumption given what I said in the previous sentence. So yeah, I see FL's point.
    I didn't see this message until after I posted my own. Yes, this is basically the gist of my own argument. I've been burned a lot by people who said they were open-minded and just testing; eventually I decided that they were really about converting others to their own position.

    Thanks, Martoon.

    FL

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If a religious person really wants to know about my beliefs as an atheist, then I'll give them a quick exposition. If, after that first exposition, the other party takes the approach of picking at every possible little flaw in my exposition, then I'm done arguing at that point.
    Yes, it seems to be a matter of intent: Is there a real intent to exchange information and learn, or is there simply an intent to win? I tire of the latter, having been in far too many religious (or TG-oriented, or whatnot) debates since the time I was a teenager.

    After awhile, I got it through my head that sometimes the goal of the other person was not always to communicate and learn, and in that case my energy is best invested elsewhere... because I can't possibly contribute to them (since they are not allowing it), nor will they be contributing to me or offering their insights in a way that would help my own to improve.

    I think the generic NT approach can be either positive (it points out the holes in ways that are more questioning in nature, asking for clarification rather than seeking to dismiss) or negative (it just wants to disprove and discount).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    I agree with the above. This is not really all about N and F types. It applies to the S types and the T types too.

    Still, the question remains: Does it occur to the people who apologize excessively, that their frequent apology would make them appear less sincere and trustworthy in the social circle?

    To these people, giving an apology is pretty much like telling a joke. It costs nothing, and it probably doesn't mean much to them. An apology just comes out of their mouth when the right button is pushed, like a bullet bursting out of an automatic rifle when you pull the trigger.

    So, the question is, when they apologize, do they actually, really, honestly mean it? If they are "serial apologizers", people would have some lingering doubts. Because it could well be just a "casual, anything-can-do apology".
    I agree with the points that you and s0532 are raising. I think it's generally understood, though, that a certain minimum level of politeness just makes communication easier even when it's tactical and insincere.

    At my job I have to do a lot of work with individual contractors, and many of them are pretty touchy. Some require a lot of hand-holding. When I first took over the job, a couple of them effectively accused me of being a bully when I didn't do a lot of the "pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top" stuff to make it easier for them to swallow a tough order. So now I routinely put in a lot of gestures of apology and politeness to head off any potential ill-will and show them that I'm aware of their situation and trying to consider their interests as well.

    Not too long ago, an ENTP contractor responded to one of my messages and asked, "Why are you so polite? You could have cut the length of that email substantially by cutting out all the empty gestures." But I responded that some other contractors need that stuff, and it's easiest to just take the same approach with everyone.

    I would happily cut out the polite stuff if I really thought I could get away with it. But being impolite can have negative repercussions and cost money, especially in a people-handling position in the workplace. Meantime, there aren't any particular negative consequences for being at least minimally polite. So I play it safe and err on the side of being polite.

    It's not a big deal to me either way. It's mainly just a tactical consideration: It's what works best when handling people.

    Meantime I agree that pathologically polite people can be a little scary. I don't like the timid-rabbit type of self-effacement. You wonder what's going on in their heads when their response is so excessive as to be grossly inappropriate.

    FL
    Last edited by RDF; 05-31-2007 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #64
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    have you ever used your politeness in a sickly sweet sort of way though? You know when you appear to be nice but the underlying tone is just rittled with hidden messages that are hard to swallow?

    Well you see that is one of my tactics, and a dear friend of mine loves to watch this, it's quite effective b/c while the person getting the 'wrath' may understand what is taking place, others near by do not. So if you decide to react then you look bad not the person who is being the bitch..... (insert my name there )
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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  5. #65
    perdu fleur par bologne Martoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I do that too -- which is why I probably sound so placatory sometimes. If I know you, you're much more apt to hear the blunt raw problems I have with your argument and even some scathing sarcasm; if I don't know you, you're much more apt to hear the smoothed-out placatory version, simply because I want to get across that I'm not being an ass and that I've actually got positive intentions, since you don't know me yet and might misread me.

    [IOW, I only treat my friends like crap.]
    lol, I can relate. I have a really great relationship with the other programmer I work with (an INTJ). We've worked together for five years, two at our current place and three at a previous company. In both places the two of us comprised the entire coding team. When we have differing opinions on a design, we have a very open debate about it where each of us directly points out the problems we see with the other's design. What's so cool about it is that there's absolutely no sense of conflict or negative emotions (I really hate conflict and avoid it at all costs). And every single time, without exception, we have come to a consensus decision that we both like, because we both want to arrive at the best conclusion, and we both want to be made aware of any problems with our own proposed design.

    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    have you ever used your politeness in a sickly sweet sort of way though? You know when you appear to be nice but the underlying tone is just rittled with hidden messages that are hard to swallow?

    Well you see that is one of my tactics, and a dear friend of mine loves to watch this, it's quite effective b/c while the person getting the 'wrath' may understand what is taking place, others near by do not. So if you decide to react then you look bad not the person who is being the bitch..... (insert my name there )
    Hey, we INTPs know passive aggression. We don't apply it in the style that you do, but we've mastered our own techniques. Nobody does passive-aggressive while maintaining plausible deniability like an INTP.
    I'm not a procrastinator. I'm a long-term planner.

  6. #66
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoon View Post
    l

    Hey, we INTPs know passive aggression. We don't apply it in the style that you do, but we've mastered our own techniques. Nobody does passive-aggressive while maintaining plausible deniability like an INTP.



    :lol: I knew there was a reason why I liked these INTP's so much
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    have you ever used your politeness in a sickly sweet sort of way though? You know when you appear to be nice but the underlying tone is just rittled with hidden messages that are hard to swallow?

    Well you see that is one of my tactics, and a dear friend of mine loves to watch this, it's quite effective b/c while the person getting the 'wrath' may understand what is taking place, others near by do not. So if you decide to react then you look bad not the person who is being the bitch..... (insert my name there )
    In my work situation with the contractors? No, that would just backfire. Basically, I'm their boss and I'm paying their salary. If I'm giving them a tough assignment or a short deadline or I'm asking them to customize the work to meet special needs (which happens with pretty much every job), then I'll apologize for the extra burden and kiss their ass a bit if that will help me get a good product from them. In that situation I wouldn't want to undermine my own ass-kissing by acting catty or obviously hypocritical at the same time.

    The contractors work alone on long projects. They want to know where they stand with me and know that I'm available to talk in case they have questions or to adjust a deadline. So I don't want to give them mixed messages. The politeness on my part may be routine (and thus insincere), but it also sends a signal that at a minimum I'll be working cooperatively with them and looking out for their interests. As time goes by and they do multiple jobs for me, the message continues to reassure them that I'm not changing up the rules on them or getting sour on their work.

    So I try to send a steady, dependable message so that they can focus on the work and not have to worry about me or my organization or the paperwork. Even if the politeness and ass-kissing is routine, it provides reassurance.

    I've done passive-aggressive behavior at other times in my life, mostly in the past when I didn't have much rank or power. Back then, passive-aggressive behavior was sometimes the only way I could communicate my dissatisfaction about something. But nowadays I try to avoid that kind of behavior, especially where the relationships are important to me (my wife, friends, co-workers and contractors, etc.)

    FL

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"

    Oh, absolutely. I agree. I argue regularly with my NT friends, and have to make a concerted effort to keep that point in mind.

    It's very easy for me to fall into the "I dislike your idea" = "I dislike you" attitude of reception. I try really hard not to. But it's extremely difficult to change the feelings that surge, even when my mind tells me they're inaccurate. When those feelings come, I can control myself enough not to make personal attacks in defense, but many times I cannot consistently remain engaged in the argument. I have to pull out in order to regain control over those errant emotions.

    I take full responsibility for my emotions; no one makes me feel them. I'm just saying that if it bothers NTs so much when an NF pulls out, then they might want to consider helping the NF through this difficulty so the felt need to pull away isn't so strong.

    I'm not suggesting it's the NT's responsibility to make NFs feel differently or try to manage NF emotions for them--only that if NTs want different reactions from some NFs, there are things NTs can do to promote the reactions they prefer.

  9. #69
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    well in your case with work you have to be as you are.

    When i refer to my style there is nothing passive about it. You can tell that I am pissed, but I am sickly sweet about it. There is a sureness in my voice, a calm before the storm type of tone. I know what should have happened and it didn't, I don't beat around the bush at all. I use it mostly when I go into restaurants The excuse me but I am missing half of my order.... I know what is owed to me, I know what standards are to be upheld and I make sure they know that I know.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasz View Post
    fair enough but play gets more interesting when it gets a little personal!
    Hmm. This is where I disagree completely. Interesting for you, perhaps. For me, it's like saying, "It's more fun to poke needles into people when you can really draw blood!"

    Sometimes needles and blood are necessary, but they're never fun.

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