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  1. #51
    Member s0532's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Maybe you're right. Once an INFP roommate and I went out to eat and the waitress completely screwed up our order. I was hesitant to complain myself cause I didn't want spit in my food, but I wasn't about to pay for something I didn't enjoy. She kept apologizing about her food when we sent it back and I asked why was she apologizing since she didn't do anything wrong. I did some apologizing of my own so maybe we were about equal, but she genuinely felt bad about sending her food back, whereas I was apologizing hoping I didn't find some extra spices in mine. But this same INFP almost bit my head off when we were discussing something, so I don't know.

    Sometimes a well placed sincere apology helps calm an escalating situation.
    yeah, I'd go with "maybe just the NFPs" too, but mostly I suspect this is largely another type myth in the making. And while I see it's sometimes a tactical motive, would guess generally it's more about issues with self-assertiveness, for those people who seem to have to apologize for being alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s0532 View Post
    yeah, I'd go with "maybe just the NFPs" too, but mostly I suspect this is largely another type myth in the making.
    I agree with the above. This is not really all about N and F types. It applies to the S types and the T types too.

    Still, the question remains: Does it occur to the people who apologize excessively, that their frequent apology would make them appear less sincere and trustworthy in the social circle?

    To these people, giving an apology is pretty much like telling a joke. It costs nothing, and it probably doesn't mean much to them. An apology just comes out of their mouth when the right button is pushed, like a bullet bursting out of an automatic rifle when you pull the trigger.

    So, the question is, when they apologize, do they actually, really, honestly mean it? If they are "serial apologizers", people would have some lingering doubts. Because it could well be just a "casual, anything-can-do apology".
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Jasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I've noticed this happening a lot.

    The pleasure I get from communicating a new idea pales in comparison to the displeasure I get from arguing.

    I think it would be helpful if, in these situations, the NT would make his purpose clear: "That's an interesting idea; I'd like to explore it some. What if...? But if that's so, then... I don't see how that is possible if..." That way I understand exactly where the other person is coming from and what they are hoping to accomplish in this discussion. (i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)

    It's also really helpful if I feel like I and the other person are on the same side, both of us looking to discover truth and gain understanding--rather than taking up competing sides and battling it out to see which side is better. I understand the usefulness of the competition, but I can't do it myself. If the NT is wanting my input on an idea, he'll get more thoughtful and honest responses if I don't feel like I'm being asked to compete.
    in my case, it is not about the usefulness of competition, maybe more the playfulness of argueing. if NF's check out, and don't play, that can be boring.
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  4. #54
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasz View Post
    in my case, it is not about the usefulness of competition, maybe more the playfulness of argueing. if NF's check out, and don't play, that can be boring.
    If NFs know it's just for play, my experience is they normally don't check out. But for them to know it's play, they normally need to feel certain they're appreciated by the people they're arguing with, regardless of the outcome of the argument, and it has to be kept at a impersonal level, or feelings come in the way and the stakes are raised too much for it to be worth it.

    Why put lots on stake for a prize that's not really that big?

  5. #55
    Senior Member Jasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    If NFs know it's just for play, my experience is they normally don't check out. But for them to know it's play, they normally need to feel certain they're appreciated by the people they're arguing with, regardless of the outcome of the argument, and it has to be kept at a impersonal level, or feelings come in the way and the stakes are raised too much for it to be worth it.

    Why put lots on stake for a prize that's not really that big?
    fair enough but play gets more interesting when it gets a little personal!
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  6. #56
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasz View Post
    fair enough but play gets more interesting when it gets a little personal!
    I agree, but at some point, the graphs of interesting and level of discomfort meet, and at that point, there's no longer much choice. The more or less involuntary backing down and covering your bases with apologies begin.

    I hate it when it happens, but it's like some basic instinct suddenly awakes and takes over. NFs are a bit boring in this respect, but I don't see how it can be changed, and it's probably the price we pay for having the strengths we do.

    Edit: Hm.. actually, I think it's not the point where the two graphs meet that's the critical one, but the point where the level of discomfort goes above a certain value. Hm.. it might be affected by level of interest, but at that point the level of interest needs to increase exponentially in order to keep us going. HM.. actually, it would probably be better to use lvl of interest and lvl of discomfort as axis and let the graph indicate chance of backing off. Hm... or...

  7. #57
    perdu fleur par bologne Martoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I don't apologize as much as some NFs. But I'll willingly and happily abandon an argument upon encountering a little push-back.

    I'll usually give one run-through of my side of the argument; if my position doesn't get any traction with the other party, then I'll drop it. I'm not going to spend a day typing messages to a stranger trying to tell him something he doesn't want to hear.

    Arguing is a low priority with me. If anything, I need the other party to evince some obvious openmindedness and desire to hear more before I'll invest time and energy in an exchange.

    Also, I don't feel bad backing off an argument. There's no loss of pride there. Since arguing is a low priority, my self-esteem isn't invested in the idea of winning or losing arguments.

    FL
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

    I agree with MacG (why does that sound like a political slogan?). On the other hand, I really see FL's point. I'm very tired of the overwhelming number of people who debate with the intent of trying to convert everyone else to their position, and have no interest in testing their position or learning anything that might change their position for the better. They don't want to become more right, they just want to be right, even if it means being wrong.

    Sadly, this seems to be the majority of people I've encountered, so if someone I don't know well starts an argument/debate, my working assumption is that that's how they are, until I see otherwise. My fear is that people who don't know me might think that I'm like that, which would be a reasonable initial assumption given what I said in the previous sentence. So yeah, I see FL's point.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    IRL I actually do apologize too much. I was raised in a family of strong INFs - especially strong Fs. My apologizing too much is concentrated to my most personal relationships, but that has more to do with a history of rejection and abandonment issues than personality imo.
    This is true. Toonia never does any waffling/excessive apology in her "outside", professional relationships. In fact, she maintains a very consistent, professional persona in her professional circles, and never has trouble telling people "no". I don't know how typical this is of NFs, since Toonia is an exceptional NF. She has a very well-developed T, but an even more developed F.

    She does apologize for things she shouldn't to me, though. I find it charming rather than annoying. It really kills me when she apologizes for apologizing too much.
    I'm not a procrastinator. I'm a long-term planner.

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoon View Post
    I agree with MacG (why does that sound like a political slogan?).
    He might as well run. Every other jamoche on the face of the US seems to be tossing his hat in the ring nowadays, so why not the clown too? He'd fit in!

    They don't want to become more right, they just want to be right, even if it means being wrong.
    I am perfectly content to let them be wrong.

    My fear is that people who don't know me might think that I'm like that, which would be a reasonable initial assumption given what I said in the previous sentence.
    I do that too -- which is why I probably sound so placatory sometimes. If I know you, you're much more apt to hear the blunt raw problems I have with your argument and even some scathing sarcasm; if I don't know you, you're much more apt to hear the smoothed-out placatory version, simply because I want to get across that I'm not being an ass and that I've actually got positive intentions, since you don't know me yet and might misread me.

    [IOW, I only treat my friends like crap.]

    This is true. Toonia never does any waffling/excessive apology in her "outside", professional relationships. In fact, she maintains a very consistent, professional persona in her professional circles, and never has trouble telling people "no". I don't know how typical this is of NFs, since Toonia is an exceptional NF. She has a very well-developed T, but an even more developed F. She does apologize for things she shouldn't to me, though. I find it charming rather than annoying. It really kills me when she apologizes for apologizing too much.
    This is a generalization, but when I look at INFJs, one of the "trademark" characteristics is how professional they are in either social or professional situations. They're pretty composed, together, with-it. "Professional" is actually the word I use to describe them. They seem to have a very clear sense of the boundaries, no real waffling on them, so they can say "yes" when appropriate and "no" when appropriate as well. Just so balanced and mature and know how to maintain the right sort of relationships with others.

    Then, in their own private worlds, with the people they really love and cherish, they show the other more "flexy" and giving side of their natures, which is prone more to the typical NF excesses... and the apologies, etc.

    Regardless, I agree with you that Toonie is quite an exceptional person.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59
    Senior Member logan235711's Avatar
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    Hey, thank-you everyone for posting so far--I'm sure some eyes have been opened as to the main feelings and causes towards those who apologize ^_^ I think I mostly apologize for a few reasons:

    1. If I feel that apologizing will prevent someone from feeling as though they cannot express themselves openly with me.

    2. To help create more harmony and less tension on an environment

    3. As a tool to instigate change or sudden openess when I do so with others whom I normally do not apologize to often (i.e. they are not used to me apologizing, so when I do, it can seem sudden and draw their attention).

    4. To save myself time, as not apologizing might waste more time (just being honest here people :p)

    5. To test the limits of people and what situations might yield surprising results by doing so

    6. Umm..The Other Stuff!

    To be honest, I try not to apologize because 'I feel bad,' but because, then I feel worse--as though all I'm doing is saying 'sorry' not because I am sorry, but because I care more about myself than the other person. So when I apologize, I try to do more-so for the other person/people than myself--otherwise, my apology will have less meaning for myself because I lack the sincerity of its use towards others, but just as a tool to boost my own short-comings rather than confronting myself. So, perhaps in the end, I feel that if I apologize for myself even a bit, then I am running away from the real issues and also making it worse in the future for others who might have to deal with me on similar terms, or in similiar situations where the apology arose.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

    If you're putting up a lot of roadblocks to good ideas, then that's your problem. Not mine.

    Anyway, if there is a clear and obvious wrong and right, then presumably the issue can easily be resolved by citing an appropriate authority and thus there's no reason to argue about it. (The other person can research the authority if they need to know more.) On the other hand, if there's no clear right and wrong, then for practical purposes it almost doesn't matter if the argument is resolved or not. Agree to disagree, and all that.

    Example: If a religious person really wants to know about my beliefs as an atheist, then I'll give them a quick exposition. If, after that first exposition, the other party takes the approach of picking at every possible little flaw in my exposition, then I'm done arguing at that point. That critical approach can be (and frequently is) applied ad nauseum, and indeed there's no need to resolve that particular argument at all (atheists and believers live together just fine). Meantime I can think of lots more productive uses of my time than arguing an issue like that.

    To be honest, I spent a lot of time in the past debating people on message boards oriented toward politics, religion, and social issues, and at the end I felt it was largely a waste of time. A little bit of that kind of debating can be recreational and informative; it's interesting to find out how much or how little one is able to influence others' thinking on subjects like that. But it quickly becomes a drag and kind of addicting in a negative way. I've come to appreciate the old saying that one should never debate politics, religion, and sex. By extension, I've even decided that it's not worth spending a lot of time debating anything that can't be resolved fairly quickly (e.g., by referring the other party to an authority and letting the other party do their own research on that basis).

    Here's another way to put it:

    I understand that an adversarial approach is the best way to debate things under certain circumstances (for example, in the courtroom where the two parties have direct and opposing interests with tangible rewards and punishments at stake, or in the workplace where hard choices have to be made on how to allocate limited material resources). But in my opinion an adversarial approach seems silly and artificial outside of those kinds of restricted frameworks. If I'm engaging in intellectual discourse on the Internet, then it seems more reasonable to me to take a scientific approach: i.e., take an information-gathering approach and willingly investigate alternative hypotheses. That can be done cooperatively, and I don't mind providing information for those who are genuinely curious about my viewpoint and/or asking my own questions about the viewpoints of others.

    But if we can't investigate each other's viewpoint cooperatively, then let's just agree to disagree. In my experience, adversarial debates about intellectual points usually aren't productive. People say that they will be open-minded in an adversarial debate, but it rarely works out that way in practice. In my own experience, the adversarial approach has a momentum of its own that works against open-mindedness in practice. Like I say, I've done a lot of that kind of debating in the past, and eventually I decided that I have better things to do with my time than argue some abstract point on an adversarial basis.

    FL

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