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  1. #41
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I don't think I apologize that much. But, like FL, I will frequently abandon an argument very quickly in the face of opposition, unless I really care about the subject and have already thought it through carefully. However, I only really do this with arguments which become personal. If the argument is more abstract I have no problem with arguing for the sake of arguing. The reasons I tend to quickly abandon arguments fall into 2 categories:

    1) I realize I'm wrong (quite infrequent, to my shame).
    2) I realize I could be wrong and need to give it more thought.
    3) I still think I'm right but need time to put my finger on the fault in the other person's argument.
    4) I know I'm right but can't be bothered trying to prove it. Prefer to leave the other person to their ignorance (pretty frequent, to my shame).

  2. #42
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Same as FL and triple-J except if I somehow get personally tangled in it all. A juicy ad hominem can do this for instance. The second I personally enter into the equation, it's like an alarm button is pushed and the entire system locks down in emergency mode. Fi takes full charge of Ne and uses 100% of it's power to scan for the limitless possibilities of what I could have done wrong instead of objectively taking in the situation. Since my Ne is extremely good at brainstorming for possibilities, I soon have a smorgasbord of possible things I fear I might have done wrong. At that point it's normally too tempting to back down, drop the flash and smoke grenade called "sorry" and escape the situation as quickly as possible in order to cool down, get back the use of rational thought and analyse wtf just happened.

    I've got much better at not entering this state of emergency over the years, though, and really dislike it when others do it, especially if it's over things like "sorry you have to drive me home" etc. Extremely annoying. It's sending the message that they think you are a person who'd probably blow up or hold a grudge over a small thing like this, so they'd better try to appease you. But that's what you get when the judging function is introverted feeling; extremely self centered value judgements. (Unless you learn to counter this by actively engaging other functions to check Fi when it's freaking out.)

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.


    I've noticed this happening a lot.

    The pleasure I get from communicating a new idea pales in comparison to the displeasure I get from arguing.

    I think it would be helpful if, in these situations, the NT would make his purpose clear: "That's an interesting idea; I'd like to explore it some. What if...? But if that's so, then... I don't see how that is possible if..." That way I understand exactly where the other person is coming from and what they are hoping to accomplish in this discussion. (i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)

    It's also really helpful if I feel like I and the other person are on the same side, both of us looking to discover truth and gain understanding--rather than taking up competing sides and battling it out to see which side is better. I understand the usefulness of the competition, but I can't do it myself. If the NT is wanting my input on an idea, he'll get more thoughtful and honest responses if I don't feel like I'm being asked to compete.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I dislike this, sometimes (esp. NTs) we are merely testing the argument/idea. If you fold, then we might decide your argument/idea is wrong... and a good idea is lost.

    I value being able to discern a good idea regardless of how well it is communicated. My ideal is to be able to glean a 'good' idea from someone who is overly timid, rude, painstaking, or possessing any other communication flaw. I'm not always capable, but tend to admire this ability in others and work to sharpen it in myself. I weary of too much emphasis on packaging and style over thinking.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #45
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    hmm. I don't think that I do this. One thing I've thought a bit about, and it might be explainable with the enneagram... but I am not a peacemaker. I don't like conflict, but I will definitely engage in it if I see it as necessary. I apologize if I've been unreasonable. I don't feel brutish at all if I have a strong negative reaction to something that violates my principles.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #46
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    (i.e. They're not wanting to beat me down, or make me feel like crap, or prove that I'm an idiot, or strengthen their self-image, etc. They just want to test an idea.)
    It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"
    I don't wanna!

  7. #47
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"
    Well put.

    Still, there are some NTs (XNTJs in particular) who like to throw "stupid" around, but abusive people come in every type. So.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    I tend to apologize because of several reasons.

    1. I think I was wrong, and would like to get past it.
    2. I feel I hurt someone, and I usually do not want to hurt people. I don't even want to think of them feeling hurt.
    3. I want to let others know that I don't want to bother them, just as I would not like to be bothered. also, I would like to let others know that I appreciate them, and I don't want them to get all buggy.
    4. I don't like the idea of bullying people, or overlooking someones feelings just to get a point across. Being smarter, and using it to dominate others, is bullying, just like being stronger, and using brute force to dominate others, is bullying.
    5. I want people to like me, and not resent every single thing I do and say. Humility and apology can help.

    I don't mind arguments, at all, however, I do not like hurting people.
    I am not a jerk, I am a human.

    sorry I can't be more clear and make it shorter and more succinct for some types. sorry. I shall now discipline myself. sorry for apologizing. sorry..
    "May our ability to smell be greater than our propensity to stink."

  9. #49
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    It would serve NFs well to understand that YOU personally have nothing to do with the fact that an NT is debating. It sounds like you're equating "you're wrong" with "you're a failure as a human being"
    I agree 100%. And I understand it rationally. And online I normally get enough time and space to listen to my rational thoughts and calm myself. But the moment I get a feeling that this is a competition and is about me, the emergency program kicks in like a reflex and clouds my mind. All of a sudden it's about me, danger, danger!, get out!, *beep-beep-beep* eject! eject! *emergency, all personell evacuate the brain immediately*

    Over time I've gotten better as mentioned, so focusing on it does help, but your advice is a bit like telling people that they must understand that panic never is a good solution in any crisis. Sure they understand it, but this understanding doesn't help them much when the crisis arrives and they find themselves running around screaming against their better judgement.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I don't think I apologize that much. But, like FL, I will frequently abandon an argument very quickly in the face of opposition, unless I really care about the subject and have already thought it through carefully.... 4) I know I'm right but can't be bothered trying to prove it. Prefer to leave the other person to their ignorance (pretty frequent, to my shame).
    I do very much the same. Except I'm not ashamed of it. I can be disputatious. It gets me nowhere. If someone doesn't appreciate what I have to contribute, so be it.

    Giving in keeps my stress level down. That is often more important to me than proving a point. Most of the time, I don't feel like arguing. Especially if it gets hostile.

    I am polite to others to avoid their anger. If they get angry, I also might. I prefer to stay cool, as I think I have a pretty bad temper.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

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