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  1. #121
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I always saw O'Hara as ESTP, employing Fe for T type goals like a tool. I could be totally off-base. She's way less N than Melanie.

    I agree with you. She definitely took things as they came and went for the moment. And the Fe was insincere. I forgot about her business acumen, too.

    J/P, I don't know, but I agree that she's probably not ENFJ.
    -
    Is there a list of ENFJ stereotypical traits? I'm fast discovering you're a complex lot, but a list of a few things to look out for would be useful.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  2. #122
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post

    I agree with you. She definitely took things as they came and went for the moment. And the Fe was insincere. I forgot about her business acumen, too.

    J/P, I don't know, but I agree that she's probably not ENFJ.
    -
    Is there a list of ENFJ stereotypical traits? I'm fast discovering you're a complex lot, but a list of a few things to look out for would be useful.
    It's an easy assumption to make because she has such a problem with raging when she's frustrated, makes her seem driven by emotion, but she has trouble understanding her own emotions. Her rages seem more eruptions of shadow Fe at a closer look, then she gets hold of herself and becomes more calculating and cunning.

    Melanie seems closer to ENFJ but then again I suppose she's too quiet for that.

  3. #123
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I think I may have said this before, but I'm not sure.

    I'm beginning to distinguish between the different types of Fe and the various ways Fe can manifest itself. I know most people conceive of Fe as being manners, etiquette, and nurturing behavior but I've met and work with a sizable portion of EFJs (mostly ESFJs) that this doesn't seem to manifest itself in a typical way. I'm using ESFJs as a contrast because they're also Fe dominate and I find it's easier to describe with ESFJs because they're more abundant and it may be easier to spot. I'm not sure if this is an ESFJ thing or an ENFJ thing.
    I can spot an ESFJ immediately. I think they have not only the advantage of abundance, but also being able to ground their Fe in the Now, making them more "real/less immaterial" in a sense, than say ENFJs who apparently exist though I've never met another but my lunatic friend Taco. They're edgy, but in a different way from ENFJs. I would consider most ESFJs to be optimistic but not ridiculously so (my friend Jorge was a Marine and had seen a lot of bad stuff - he took his duty seriously, but he was a real jokester, and got along with everybody. He stuck up for the "little guy", and took up for me more than once when I was being railroaded. He liked people to get along, but I would never want to cross him up. He had a big temper under that outward mannerly demeanor.)

    Soap operas are a great place to type people, especially because there are so few Ns involved and it's funner to watch the nearly-unadulterated Ss in action. Here are my takes:

    ESFJs:

    Amber (the Young and the Restless)
    Kevin (")
    Lizzie Spaulding (Guiding Light)

    Amber shares my sense of elaborate style and deeply emotional approach to life and loved ones, but her S really grounds her in the moment and makes her seem even more Fe concentrated and over-the-top. Same with Lizzie. She's hilarious, witty, stylized and Fe-powered, but her identification with reality is very Now and not immaterial whatsoever, even in her whimsical moments. (Side note: All three characters are paired with ISFPs and it really works... I really like the dynamic of Fe/Si-Fi/Se.)

    Eastenders:

    Billy
    Barry (though I really don't like to use Barry as an example... such a buffoon...)


    Mr. Bingley (Pride and Prejudice)


    I'd love to hear ENFJs and ESFJs describe how they experience Fe, but sometimes I find Fe to be like water. Ubiquitous and tasteless in the sense of lacking the physical sense of taste, odor, or smell. It's like a base, you can add flavor to it and it can become any type of drink you want it to be. Fe is very absorbent and reflective and takes on the qualities of it's environment. So I have quite a few ESFJs at my job who's Fe looks colorless. I can only base this on their workplace behavior but I try to take situations where we're relaxed as more of a basis for this.
    Fe is very easily transmogrified to its environs. I don't know about anyone else, but I'll go chameleon in a situation I'm new to or am unsure about. I think Fe has a way of attempting to blend in a temporary manner so it can size up the room. Fe is action-oriented, in my opinion, and it wants to know how the people recieve others, what the acceptible "norm" is for maximum social success in said situation. That's what makes Fe so dominant in the social arena. It knows generally and instinctively how to read the scene and the people in it.



    With a couple of them I think I've figured out their type because I do see the need to connect with others, the emotional expressiveness, and natural calibration with their environment. They seem very current and trendy, almost SP-like, and their Si mostly comes through as factual knowledge retention and reminiscing but not necessarily traditional, kinda like pure_mercury. I think age also has a lot to do with it, because most of them are between 25 and 33 so maybe more stereotypical Fe characteristics will show up later in life. Also, I'm in the DC area and many people around here tend to be more educated so stereotypical Si traits may not be as obvious.
    Pure Mercury is an excellent example of type. He's well-spoken, glib, knowledgable, and his bent toward music seems to correlate with other ESFJs I've known. The movie reviewer for our major local paper is an ExFJ, and I'm leaning toward S because he's not just funny and glib, but very observant, not squeamish, thoughtful and gives intelligent reasons for why he does or does not like a picture. He has a great capacity to remember movies and make comparisons, and his realm of interest is very broad, from French subtitled Afghani indie movies about pet ownership to blockbuster stuff like Batman.


    These Fe dominants are harder to identify because they're not baking cookies and changing diapers, tend to be more sarcastic and wry than motherly/fatherly, not really fluffy, but they're very social and seem to pick up social cues quickly. And when I think about it further, you really can't have social harmony without some ability to be mutable. I'm not saying this is a go with the flow attitude, because that's more of an FP thing than FJ, just more of an ability to sublimate yourself.
    We automatically figure out the values of others and use that make social decisions that will make things flow easily. Our interest is NOT control over the humans in our arena nor is it about being fake, it's about easy fluid dynamic and pleasing those people. Our value is found in the quality of our human interactions. Speaking for myself, if my human dynamics are flowing well, I get all the new ideas, randomness, data, creative charge and sharpening that I thrive on.


    I don't want this to sound like mindless conformity because it's not. It's so easy to pin that label on Fe.
    Easy and unfair. Especially compared to "cool" Fi which I think gets interpreted as more intelligent or fashionable.



    I say all this because I'm just trying to isolate some components of Fe that I see rarely discussed in type descriptions. Mainly, I think could be a reason why it's so hard to identify ENFJs because you have this natural Fe reflectiveness and that's got Ni behind it and not all manifestations Ni are eccentric and bizarre. I don't know any ENFJs besides the ones on the forum and we're all very different people. The best example I can give is if you read how Lookin4 describes how she navigates her workplace through a mixture of drive, enthusiasm, charm, perceptiveness, and strategy. And it's easier to find examples of manipulative ENFJs than others.
    I think ENFJs are also hard to pinpoint because they come off as either ENTJs or INFJs. I've found this to be personally troublesome.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #124
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    Great description, proteanmix. Easy to understand, too.

    I always get an air of resourcefulness about ENFJs. But they have intuition to know they need to use their Fe (social/interpersonal skills) to their advantage. I can see why they would complement INxPs.

    It almost seems a type born from necessity, or strength through adversity.

    --

    What about Scarlett O'Hara from Gone with the Wind, then? Arguably non too complementary a suggestion, admittedly. But she's an extrovert, her head's always in the future, and she's very resourceful. Fe, I don't know. She's pretty besotted throughout the film and uses etiquette to her full advantage. S or N is debatable. I think she seems S in her immaturity, but the N is discovered when her environment calls for it.

    Sorry if she's already been suggested.

    Scarlett is an xSTJ. Out of balance: dramatics, insensitivity, bossiness, histrionic displays of emotion, MINE, etc. (And I say this loving Scarlett to pieces...) Scarlett had zero intuition. Her strength lay in the NOW, being the master of the present tense, reading peoples' weaknesses to her advantage. I think Rhett was an ESTP which is why it was like Clash of the Titans.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  5. #125
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Right. Clearly I'm not very good at this typing lark, but I've had a quick scan through my movie rankings picking out individualistic, outgoing, F driven revolutionaries.

    C.R.A.Z.Y. - Gervais Beaulieu (maybe I. maybe P)
    Alien films - Ripley (IST?)
    Fitzcarraldo - Fitzcarraldo
    In the Name of the Father - Gerry Conlon
    Cast Away - Chuck Noland (?)
    Princess Mononoke - Princess Mononoke (I)
    Nausicaä - Nausicaä
    This Is England - Combo
    Children of Men - Julian (T, I: E through necessity)

    I don't know if that's worth owt. I wouldn't have thought of Catherine on going past Wuthering Heights.

    I'm trying to think of some likely Bette Davis and Meryl Streep lead films. They both often played confident, individualist, value/change driven, feeling leads.
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    Alien films - Ripley (IST?)
    LOL Cast Away. Anyway...
    Ripley strikes me as INTP, given that there's a huge difference between male and female INTPs.

    PS This is England--Combo? Who was that? Movie depressed me, I don't wanna watch it again.

  7. #127
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    LOL Cast Away. Anyway...
    Ripley strikes me as INTP, given that there's a huge difference between male and female INTPs.

    PS This is England--Combo? Who was that? Movie depressed me, I don't wanna watch it again.
    You're probably right about Ripley. I think she just adapted to the situation. Although she did take charge (in a practical way) a little too well for an INTP. ...I'm still not sure.

    Combo was the nutcase. If he is an ENFJ, he's a very unhealthy one, indeed.

    *loves Cast Away* "Wilson!!!!"
    http://badges.mypersonality.info/badge/0/6/68764.png
    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    You're probably right about Ripley. I think she just adapted to the situation. Although she did take charge (in a practical way) a little too well for an INTP. ...I'm still not sure.
    Don't give the system more credit than it deserves. Imagine yourself put in a tough situation for several years, and imagine how your capabilities might increase.

  9. #129
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Don't give the system more credit than it deserves. Imagine yourself put in a tough situation for several years, and imagine how your capabilities might increase.
    I agree. I'm very good at adapting to a situation, personally. I was always the leader as a kid.

    Can you explain her being an INTP? She definitely gives off the right vibes, but I couldn't put it into words.
    http://badges.mypersonality.info/badge/0/6/68764.png
    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    I agree. I'm very good at adapting to a situation, personally. I was always the leader as a kid.

    Can you explain her being an INTP? She definitely gives off the right vibes, but I couldn't put it into words.
    She reminds me of myself, most importantly. No, not great evidence to present, but it is a large part of why I think she is.

    Let's see...She wasn't jovial with her crews. Her assessments were definitely independent, not based on consensus. She seemed contemplative. And she had rebellious tendencies.

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