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[Fi] Fi -- Why does it drive you nuts?

G

Glycerine

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The source you chose wasn't really the best, but I think you're right :). I just watched the speech again. He's definitely an I, and his overuse of metaphors makes me think INFJ (though the preaching language was intentional for effect with the speech).

Anyway my point stands about ENFPs, we can go that way sometimes and go the other way sometimes.

haha, you're right! I was just a bit lazy to research it thoroughly.

Yeah, it's cool that ENFPs use Fi to stand up for their values even to the detriment of the group. That's why sometimes I wish I had Fi instead of Fe. My Fe sometimes makes me become a doormat for what others believe as opposed to knowing what I truly believe on a certain matter. I guess it's about finding the right balance in any of the respectable cognitive processes.
 

BlueScreen

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haha, you're right! I was just a bit lazy to research it thoroughly.

Yeah, it's cool that ENFPs use Fi to stand up for their values even to the detriment of the group. That's why sometimes I wish I had Fi instead of Fe. My Fe sometimes makes me become a doormat for what others believe as opposed to knowing what I truly believe on a certain matter. I guess it's about finding the right balance in any of the respectable cognitive processes.

Fi can make you more of a doormat because you have to cross it somewhere to move into action. Crossing social rules, customs, etc. is no problem but dealing out anything that hurts people is almost like doing it to yourself. Part of the reason why I related to MLK. After all that had been done to the Negros he was looking for best case for everyone. To kick them in the head, like part of him was probably thinking, was not that satisfying. Fi and Fe can be so similar in what they achieve, but are so different as processes.
 

redacted

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Yeah, it's cool that ENFPs use Fi to stand up for their values even to the detriment of the group. That's why sometimes I wish I had Fi instead of Fe. My Fe sometimes makes me become a doormat for what others believe as opposed to knowing what I truly believe on a certain matter. I guess it's about finding the right balance in any of the respectable cognitive processes.

Fi will stand up for their values at the detriment of the group, but so will Fe. The difference is that Fe is more likely to want to change the opinions of those around them -- they want to see tangible change towards their own feeling sentiment. Fe is not about blindly agreeing. Fe's goal is to agree (just like Te's goal for order), yes, but unless they're extremely unhealthy, they'll have their own opinions. Thinking Fe people always agree (or pretend to) is like thinking Te people are always in an orderly environment (or they pretend it's orderly).
 
G

Glycerine

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Fi will stand up for their values at the detriment of the group, but so will Fe. The difference is that Fe is more likely to want to change the opinions of those around them -- they want to see tangible change towards their own feeling sentiment. Fe is not about blindly agreeing. Fe's goal is to agree (just like Te's goal for order), yes, but unless they're extremely unhealthy, they'll have their own opinions. Thinking Fe people always agree (or pretend to) is like thinking Te people are always in an orderly environment (or they pretend it's orderly).

haha thank you for that clarification. I will admit that my Fe is probably not the most healthy and because of that I sometimes tend to let people tear apart my argument and let it slide by conforming to the group's ideas just for the sake of avoiding conflict (being a doormat). It depends on if something REALLY matters to me for me to go against the group but I hate to do that unless I believe its absolutely necessary. Does that have more to do with being enneagram 9w1 than having Fe?
 

Thursday

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I am so blind to my own emotional state that I actually have depended on feedback from others to tell me how I'm feeling.

thats tertiary Fe for ya.
or Fe in general.
 

redacted

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haha thank you for that clarification. I will admit that my Fe is probably not the most healthy and because of that I sometimes tend to let people tear apart my argument and let it slide by conforming to the group's ideas just for the sake of avoiding conflict (being a doormat). It depends on if something REALLY matters to me for me to go against the group but I hate to do that unless I believe its absolutely necessary. Does that have more to do with being enneagram 9w1 than having Fe?

Yes. Much more of an enneagram 9 thing. (I do that too to some extent...)

I know plenty of Fe people that are pretty bossy with their opinions, as much as Te people even.

P.S. What's your type?
 

redacted

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Ah. I'm a 9w1 INFJ too.

Our compulsive need for harmony probably has more to do with Ni than Fe -- Ni strives to keep the "abstract environment" constant and predictable -- we want the environment in-line with our idea of how we think things should be. The Fe just makes decisions that implement the vision, and the only way it knows is to talk and try to reach consensus.

A scared INFJ may sacrifice the outer world basically and just use a fake version of Fe because it's easier and doesn't put their Ni vision in danger (aka placating everyone all the time). But they'll never be happy because their vision doesn't match their environment. A healthier INFJ will use Fe to convince those around them to accept their vision or to create a new environment in which the vision will more closely correspond to external reality.

The healthiest INFJ will place themselves in an environment in which Ni visions can constantly be cultivated and implemented via relationships they have with others(Fe).
 
G

Glycerine

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Ah. I'm a 9w1 INFJ too.

Our compulsive need for harmony probably has more to do with Ni than Fe -- Ni strives to keep the "abstract environment" constant and predictable -- we want the environment in-line with our idea of how we think things should be. The Fe just makes decisions that implement the vision, and the only way it knows is to talk and try to reach consensus.

A scared INFJ may sacrifice the outer world basically and just use a fake version of Fe because it's easier and doesn't put their Ni vision in danger (aka placating everyone all the time). But they'll never be happy because their vision doesn't match their environment. A healthier INFJ will use Fe to convince those around them to accept their vision or to create a new environment in which the vision will more closely correspond to external reality.

The healthiest INFJ will place themselves in an environment in which Ni visions can constantly be cultivated and implemented via relationships they have with others(Fe).

This definitely sounds a lot like me. Your posts always tend to wow me with their insight. :)
 

Eric B

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Fi will stand up for their values at the detriment of the group, but so will Fe. The difference is that Fe is more likely to want to change the opinions of those around them -- they want to see tangible change towards their own feeling sentiment. Fe is not about blindly agreeing. Fe's goal is to agree (just like Te's goal for order), yes, but unless they're extremely unhealthy, they'll have their own opinions. Thinking Fe people always agree (or pretend to) is like thinking Te people are always in an orderly environment (or they pretend it's orderly).

Interesting. Never thought of it that way. Helps further sort out feelings that seemed like Fi .
Now, the NFP's are usually associated with "championing causes". So is this more about changing people's opinions, or is it just changing behavior and policy, regardless of whether the people's opinions are changed? (I for some reason thought Fi would be the one to try to change others opinions).
 

BlueScreen

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Interesting. Never thought of it that way. Helps further sort out feelings that seemed like Fi .
Now, the NFP's are usually associated with "championing causes". So is this more about changing people's opinions, or is it just changing behavior and policy, regardless of whether the people's opinions are changed? (I for some reason thought Fi would be the one to try to change others opinions).

The ultimate goal for an ENFP would probably be to help people to see the world more clearly. We don't change people normally. We give them the information they need to be inspired to change themselves. And that doesn't mean convincing them with charisma to make choices, just where they are missing the truth.

It's a mistake a lot of types make looking at ENFPs. We are NFs, but we are close to ENTPs. With Ne we map connections for a living in a compulsive manner. If we help you it is normally something to do with connections. We create or fill in links in emotional or general understanding.

And Fi (if you look at it in a really cold way) just means we look at the core of things. The truths spend far too much time staring you in the face. Which makes it hard to avoid some things and move on. Lying to yourself is sort of like hiding in the middle of a sporting field in daylight. It's a pretty futile exercise.
 

redacted

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Interesting. Never thought of it that way. Helps further sort out feelings that seemed like Fi .
Now, the NFP's are usually associated with "championing causes". So is this more about changing people's opinions, or is it just changing behavior and policy, regardless of whether the people's opinions are changed? (I for some reason thought Fi would be the one to try to change others opinions).

Sounds more like Ne. Fi itself doesn't care about external instantiations of their cause.
 

lorkan

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It drives me nuts when I start feeling secure around Fi types they eventually get angry and I never have a clue that they actually are unhapyy, because their expression seems more Te wich makes ME feel unhappy because they innapropiatly are acting cold. Some I ask myself wether Fe really is fake or if it's not Fi that is that.

For example in this thread I see ENFP saying "YOU SHOULD DO SOME RESEARCH".... is this when you are upset? Why the hell be rude? Just tell the truth instead.
 

BlueScreen

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It drives me nuts when I start feeling secure around Fi types they eventually get angry and I never have a clue that they actually are unhapyy, because their expression seems more Te wich makes ME feel unhappy because they innapropiatly are acting cold. Some I ask myself wether Fe really is fake or if it's not Fi that is that.

For example in this thread I see ENFP saying "YOU SHOULD DO SOME RESEARCH".... is this when you are upset? Why the hell be rude? Just tell the truth instead.

It's just a type conflict. When you guys get confident you often start organising and compartmentalising. For some reason Fi doesn't like to be part of it because from an Fi point of view it can look like the people are dismissed in the name of the cause. And we don't like objectification or dehumanisation. It isn't really that, but relative to an NFP it is. It's the whole looking at the core thing always again. With ENFP the person is never simplified to a just piece in the strategic puzzle, they more around in the puzzle with all their complexity and links still in tact. Like I sometimes think it is funny to say we are less accurate about detail, because we bring the full object to the table when working a problem rather than the shadow. Most other types miss some links because they play around with just the projections of the object, focus on one part then the next. It's also why the obvious link isn't always that obvious to us, not because we don't see it but because it is sitting there with another thousand. Those IQ test questions that ask which is the odd one out have this effect also because you end up tossing up on which difference the writer would see as more important rather than looking for an odd one out. The detail limitation seems to come from not seeing the trees from the forest unless they have a good reason to stand out as important.
 

lorkan

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I see your post and understand perfectly what your saying. It seems it is a big clash between us, even if I recognize your example in the bottom with my own Ni to some extent. Though I do get the feeling that whatever I say is not good enough or will never be good enough, because I'm focused at "do the right thing" (works in the moment) and your focused at "be yourself" (longtime happiness).

I have an ISFP friend that I've hung with awhile now and he actually seem to appreciate alittle of my confidence (as long as we have the same opinions).

Am I fair?
 

BlueScreen

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I see your post and understand perfectly what your saying. It seems it is a big clash between us, even if I recognize your example in the bottom with my own Ni to some extent. Though I do get the feeling that whatever I say is not good enough or will never be good enough, because I'm focused at "do the right thing" (works in the moment) and your focused at "be yourself" (longtime happiness).

I have an ISFP friend that I've hung with awhile now and he actually seem to appreciate alittle of my confidence (as long as we have the same opinions).

Am I fair?

I appreciate it more as I understand it more. I think as soon as I realised what an INFJ was I appreciated it more. For some reason ENFP can really mistype INFJs and their intentions, maybe because your first four functions are completely foreign to us. And because we normally approach situations by reading intentions and have a decent amount of confidence in our perceptions, it can cause trouble when they see mixed stuff and get confused. Like we read that you have good intent and don't want to harm us or anyone else, but on one level you ring ENFP alarm bells, like it's too calm there must be a catch, or when are they going to pull out the gun, hehe. It might be our reaction to the judging function. It's quite strange.

I wouldn't worry about being good enough. The fact we don't have a good enough measurement is more the problem. That is another thing lost in translation. We just don't stop exploring or place limits on what we question. Thing is you don't have to care, because it is for our own entertainment and enlightenment, rather than to judge you. If we aren't doing it consciously and saying it, it is happening subconsciously anyway. It doesn't really turn off. Luckily ENFPs are pretty non-judgmental and aren't competitive or achievement based. If someone says that guy is a bisexual sociopath with 5 arms who wants to take over the world, we say cool, I've never met one of them before. The more intricate and weird you are the better :). The more we see of something the more we appreciate and love it for what it is.

Just to clarify though. The times when we will get judgy it will be about control or interpersonal stuff. If we think anything is destructive to people around you on a more than superficial level or is restricting them from reaching their potential, then we judge. But we judge on that action, not on the fact you are also something else that society disapproves of. And we don't hold judgment on that action later unless we believe it is present again. The whole no two situations are the same thing.
 

BlueScreen

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Actually another thing we might find unnerving is INFJs seem to kill thoughts and emotions at the conscious level. You see it then it vanishes and is never expressed. I think with Fi you see what we want you to see a lot of the time. It is usually truthful and we express stuff because it is fair and constructive to be honest, but the decision happens at a level that is less detectable by the viewer.
 

lorkan

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noigm: There are 2 reasons why I am "too" calm. And It's either because I am aloof at the moment (not feeling worth nor necessity for emotional energy), or It could be that I try to disciplin my emotional reactions (outwardly). Why I would want that is because I don't want to appear to clingy (or "unstable" as I've heard thinkers say to me) in an otherwise neutral situation.

Yes, I know that emotions come and go as very much and sometimes sudden. I don't have the ability to manipulate the viewer as you have but as I've said; I try to atleast disciplin myself somewhat and It's actually because I don't want the feelings to get critized (sry, my ego won't allow it). My Fe will never feel this perfect harmony but I like when Fi's complement me and calming me down.
 

Nocapszy

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It drives me nuts 'cause I can get along with an __FP since they'll understand enough of what I'm saying thanks to S/Ne.

But if there's anything they can't keep up with using that alone, it's just a pain.
 

SillySapienne

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Why do you care so much?!?!?

What's it to you?!?!?!

These are the types of complaints that get thrown my way because of my Fi-ness.

On the daily, I can be very much like the Dude from The Big Lebowski but the second something I deem fucked up goes down, a fiery hell within me lets loose and reeks havoc on trying to right, or fix something I view to be terribly wrong.

:)
 
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