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  1. #71
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i think feeling is pointless for it's own sake. i agree that one should process his or her feelings, but only for the goal of long-term happiness.

    if there was a hypothetical feeling that wouldn't make you feel better in the long term by processing it, then you shouldn't. right?

    The purpose of life is just to feel good? Is it so important to feel good that we should lie to ourselves?

  2. #72
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Here's an article that I think describes the difference between sympathy and empathy well.

    So, what's the difference?

    Sympathy: the act of imagining and interpreting the thoughts, experiences, and perspectives of others from our own lens (e.g. our history, experiences, priorities and values).

    Empathy: the act of attempting to understand the thoughts, experiences, and perspectives of others from their own lens (e.g. their history, experiences, priorities and values)..

    Although subtle, the difference in effect between empathy and sympathy is significant. Following is an example, which magnifies the point:
    A woman in labor tells her husband she is in a terrible amount of pain. He says, "I know, I strained my back once."(sympathy - using his own limited lens).


    A woman in labor tells her husband she is in a terrible amount of pain. He asks her, "Is this the worst pain you've ever felt?" Then he asks her to describe what it feels like, where the pain lies, and if there is anything he can do to help ease the pain. (The key to empathy: There is no "I" in empathy) (article's emphasis).
    Empathy - How to Show Empathy - Showing Empathy

    And because it's interesting, the article continues...
    In the above example, how might the woman respond in the first scenario? I polled several women and learned that they agreed they would most likely feel inclined to beat him over the head with the nearest object they could get their hands on. The point? The husband could not possibly draw from his own experience in this scenario, and yet, he put himself into the equation. Doing so, only magnified the gap in their experiences, missed an opportunity to show empathy, and likely made the wife feel alone and misunderstood.

    Although in the second scenario, the woman might not exactly feel like explaining anything given her circumstance, his efforts to show empathy, to understand her experience would most likely be met with appreciation and serve as a perfect opening to an enlightening discussion, even if it took place at a later time.

    What Empathy is not:
    An attempt to assert your opinion
    An exercise in convincing others of your point of view, or having them convince you of theirs
    Anything that starts with "I...."
    Automatic agreement with the other individual's perspective
    Acknowledgment that you are wrong in any way

    What Empathy is:
    Listening
    Asking questions - for aid in clarification and understanding
    Temporarily suspending your own ideas, opinions, and emotions (particularly anger and resentment)
    Best when paired with validation

    Seems as if the simplest test for sympathy vs empathy - is it ultimately about you, or about the other person?

  3. #73
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The purpose of life is just to feel good? Is it so important to feel good that we should lie to ourselves?
    well, yeah. if lying to yourself made you feel better in the long term, you should do that.

    although, it never does... so given that, it makes sense to process all your feelings.

  4. #74
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    well, yeah. if lying to yourself made you feel better in the long term, you should do that.

    although, it never does... so given that, it makes sense to process all your feelings.
    To me, feelings are a source of truth and need to be evaulated for what they can tell me and teach me. To deny them is the deny my own truth, soul murder. However, once evaluated for their worth, I can decide which feelings are valid and which were not. I do not have to be slave to my feelings to understand and process them. I certainly don't have to act or speak mindlessly on a feeling.

  5. #75
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    To me, feelings are a source of truth and need to be evaulated for what they can tell me and teach me. To deny them is the deny my own truth, soul murder. However, once evaluated for their worth, I can decide which feelings are valid and which were not. I do not have to be slave to my feelings to understand and process them. I certainly don't have to act or speak mindlessly on a feeling.
    well, in your case, at least from my perspective, your Fi is not annoying at all. (it's because your Te is good)

    anyways, though, my philosophy on life is...well, free will is an illusion, absolute morality is impossible, etc. so you might as well try to make yourself feel as good as possible in the long term. there's no point in doing anything else.

    so obviously if processing your emotion makes you happy in the long term, you should do that. and i'd say that processing emotion makes EVERYONE happier in the long run. it's a good idea to do it. but the only reason it's a good idea is that it maximizes long term happiness.

    a "good" action to take, if reduced down, should benefit the decision maker more than any other possible decision.

  6. #76
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I tend to think of sympathy being associated with Ne (and to a lesser extent Se). Ne and Se perceive and can understand another person's viewpoint, but these functions do not necessarily seek to relate to another person in an emotional way. Empathy I would associate with both Fe and Fi. The difference is that Fe seeks to demonstrate their empathy in some way to the other person. Fi can feel empathy without letting the other person ever know it.

    Overall I tend to think xNFP's have the best total understanding of people in general since they have a natural understanding of people from their perceptions and also empathise in their judgements. Conversely I think xSTJ's as a whole have the worst understanding of people being neither naturally sympathetic nor empathetic.
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  7. #77
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    what is it that you think i'm not understanding about empathy?

    what would you infer my definition of empathy is?
    Well, from posts like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i've always thought of it the opposite way. when an Fi person empathizes, they hold the emotions of others to their own standard for feeling. an Fe user, while empathizing, holds another person to the feeling standards that they can see or have observed.

    so i always viewed Fe as the more empathetic function
    I get the feeling that you have little understanding about what both Fi as well as empathy truly mean/are.

    Having and using Fi allows a person to observe and, or imagine other people in various traumatic scenarios and imagine what it would be and feel like if such things were to happen to befall them.

    Fi is more inclined to have internally founded morals and values that they apply to everyone including themselves, i.e. acting in revenge is not okay, the nature of one's intent is far more important than the action one happens to make....

    And through these processes one becomes more empathetic to others and their particular circumstances. Because they assess a person and a person's deeds, by and through imagining how they themselves would be, feel and act if they were that other person, i.e. limited/defined by that person's environmental/genetic conditions and given these perceptual conditions, how "they" would react/respond/feel when subjected to whichever particular circumstance is in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Where is the irony?
    I guess it just kinda seems ironic that those who happen to truly know themselves tend to be those who are better able to understand, and hence empathize with other people.

    Last edited by SillySapienne; 07-18-2008 at 10:02 AM. Reason: sin tax
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  8. #78
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I've read a number of comments about how Fi drives members batty -- particularly in regards to ENFP ('cause that's my type so you know, I remember these things).

    What does that mean?

    What is Fi and why does it drive you nuts?

    I barely understand how I experience Fi, but I'm VERY CURIOUS as to how it seems to other people.
    I experience it as being brutalized, in extreme cases, or as selfish in many others. Not every FP does this to me, though. Some of them are really easy to get along with.

    With the ones who do bother me, though. I feel like I'm being threatened, asked to accept their will and emotions as the basis of reality, while being given no sort of accommodation at all, as if they are just automatically "right" because of their feelings and I have no right to question them or ask for any sort of respect in return for respecting their feelings. I feel like they're trying to "force their truth" on me, and it's not comfortable. Generally leads to intense conflict and anxiety.

    Sometimes intense interaction with an Fi type results in me needing to do the following kinds of things to unwind afterwards:

    1. Recite the Jedi Code.
    2. Do math problems (despite normally not liking math that much).
    3. Read a technical manual.
    4. Have a long discussion with an INTx about a complex subject.

    The best way to describe why I need to do this is an analogy to food. If I eat too much chocolate, I feel like I need to eat chips or something else that's salty to sort of balance it. It's like I'm doing the mental equivalent of eating something salty to get the overly-chocolate taste out of my mouth after talking to an FP. Except that it's with my mind rather than my mouth.

    Does that make sense?

  9. #79
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    I hate my Fi when it makes me react to terrible things in a very extreme way, both physically and mentally. Today I heard about the deeds of a certain Nazi officer, what made me feel like I was having a combined panic and heart attack.

    I also hate it when someone dares to violate my values and I get (usually silently) enraged. (This happens quite rarely.)

    Both my Ti and (for some reason) Te are quite strong, and I've always could explain the reasons to my values logically. They provide a good balance to my Fi.

  10. #80
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I guess it just kinda seems ironic that those who happen to truly know themselves tend to be those who are better able to understand, and hence empathize with other people.
    It makes perfect sense to me.

    Although, in simple terms, knowing yourself = knowing others, yes it is ironic. I see what you are saying now.

    Yes.. in knowing yourself.. you have such power.. Not the power that dominates.. but the power that is present in the currents of love and understanding.. appreciation.

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