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  1. #31
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    This is one the things I cannot stand the most about dealing with people, those who watch me and immediately react once they've determined they cannot get the proper cues out of me, and their efforts from that point on seem to be trying to rein me in (sometimes I haven't even opened my mouth yet!) . It just makes me totally resistant to anything they've got to say after that point and I want to get as far away from them as possible. I feel a deep repugnance deep in every part of my being towards their desire to bring me into line and mediate (reason?) me into their notion of how I should behave. And if the person tries to pursue me after I try to retreat, ugh, ugh, ugh!
    Heh me too. I HATE it. And I don't see why it matters anyway. I mean if I'm not hurting or bothering anyone why should I have to conform to some standard? I'm me. I don't conform.

    I'm actually surprised that this comes up so much though. Every INFP I've met was really aware of social norms and didn't really do anything that wasn't in line with them. As for ISFPs....wellll....LOL....perhaps they were only talking about ISFPs and not INFPs.

    ETA: When reading through this thread I realize that basically we all just drive each other nuts. lol. Heh. Acutally it's not really that often that I have personality based issues with people. Usually people irritate me becuse they're immature or hurtful/inconsiderate or just flat out annoying and it's not really related to personality.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  2. #32
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    Fi: I find relevancy in both irrelevant and relevant things to create my own personal [ir]relevancy.
    I may be bested in battle, but I shall never be defeated.

  3. #33
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    :rolli:

    I'm massively hungover.

    But, I'll say this: Fi and whatever the fuck that means or signifies, has been the component to me that has made me proudly, and sadly, different than most.

    If I am in a room surrounded by a majority that is acting like moron/mean following sheeple, I'll have no problem seeing this sad fact and because of my E, making it known to them that they are ignorant people who will be scoffed at as barbaric idiots in history books to come.

    I equate my Fi to that mental mechanism in me, that sadly so many people are lacking, called EMPATHY.

    I have *always* been an *incredibly* empathetic person, ever since three, if I recall correctly.

    My capacity for empathy has been one of my genetic gifts that I am greatly appreciative for.

    Perhaps this is my Fi speaking, but I tend to project that other's Fi is similar to my own.

    The only crappy thing I can think of Fi, is if the person who "has" it, is a crappy person themselves.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  4. #34
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

    Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

    Like me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    Heh me too. I HATE it. And I don't see why it matters anyway. I mean if I'm not hurting or bothering anyone why should I have to conform to some standard? I'm me. I don't conform.
    I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.

    It's been interesting for me to read this thread because I'm not very good at picking out particular functions and identifying them in everyday life. It's true that the majority of ENFPs I know in real life seem to drive me up the wall. Sitting and chatting with them feels a bit like forcing myself to remain calm and pleasant while worms crawl all over me.

    Reading over this thread, it crosses my mind that my reaction to Fi may be a bit like my reaction to modern art. It appears to be incredibly subjective and mostly for the benefit of the artist, which is fine and dandy. But when they go and put it on display for the general public... it comes across to me as shockingly egocentric.

    ... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)

  6. #36
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I've done oodles and oodles of research on empathy.

    Faith, what you're talking about is an *aspect* to empathy, but not empathy as a whole.

    My mom and my sister I strongly believe are Fe, they feel the pain and emotions of those they encounter, but they don't necessarily process what that other person must be going through and why, they are kind of like emotional sponges, I am too, but there are cognitive thought processes that are simultaneously going on as I am "feeling" the person.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #37
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.
    Oh speaking for myself, I get this, but I don't like when Fe's see me as part of their rightful emotive canvas to paint their social visions on/with.


    ... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)
    I often feel others moods and emotions invading my space like a second skin. I haven't really noticed a difference with many thinkers, they still have moods and emotions that can be sensed, lurking inside of them, often more poignant because their feeling is less sophistocated than feelers and they feel more vulnerable about them... the only difference is thinkers as often don't seek to impress some standard on me and they leave me alone. I always feeling other's sadness and such, and often feel muh pity or empathy which can become exhausting. As for me, I try not to be invasive of others, it is not my place to fix or change anyone unless they ask for help.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.

    It's been interesting for me to read this thread because I'm not very good at picking out particular functions and identifying them in everyday life. It's true that the majority of ENFPs I know in real life seem to drive me up the wall. Sitting and chatting with them feels a bit like forcing myself to remain calm and pleasant while worms crawl all over me.

    Reading over this thread, it crosses my mind that my reaction to Fi may be a bit like my reaction to modern art. It appears to be incredibly subjective and mostly for the benefit of the artist, which is fine and dandy. But when they go and put it on display for the general public... it comes across to me as shockingly egocentric.

    ... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)
    Yeah. That's prolly what Dissonance meant.

    Yeah lol. I definitely know other types besides Fi types that are empathetic. Like my ISFJ friend...HOLY FUDGE...she's got empathy like you would not believe!

    Errr welll when it comes to empahty and Fi maybe this is what people are talking about:
    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  9. #39
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

    Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

    Like me.

    Do you need Ti or Te to determine whether things are true or false?
    I mean like if somehow Ti or Te didn't exist then would people be unable to determine the truth?

    I strongly value truth/knowing the truth so I'm pretty in tune with it but I have no idea if that's becuase I have strong Ti or Te or whatever.
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  10. #40
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The radical subjective nature of Fi makes thinkers uncomfortable. They want people to be able to explain their decisions to them, or for the very least want them to be consistent enough to be made sense of. Bottom line is, Thinkers need for situations to make sense. Fi is quite divorced from logic and therefore has difficulty doing this.

    Fi in ENFP is less problematic for Thinkers than in the INFP, as it is more supported by Te (therefore more logical), yet some people may find the Fi in ENFP more problematic because it is slave to the Extroverted Intuition. This may lead to corrupt values as Fi would be used to support nearly every hunch of the ENFP. Such persons tend to turn radically egocentric.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fes tend to find Fi disturbing because they expect for values and motivations of people to derive from the oustside. From clear-cut customs ostensible to all, as Js they want human behavior to be predictable. Fi behavior is difficult for them to understand as it has very little grounding in the external world of values.
    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Fi is pretty subtle.

    It's one of the "perceptual" decision making processes (along with Ti), which means it's good at making decisions in the middle of massive, nonlinear hits of unstructured information (Te and Fe need their info structured to deal with it).

    But unlike Ti, it's more personalized; it encourages a personal relationship with the evolving information. But a prerequisite for any personal relationship is prior experience to determine what's acceptable or not.

    An *extremely* simple-minded example of how Fi works is cooking. Say you're making sauce. You need to taste your sauce as you're cooking it and add whatever ingredients you need to make it taste "good". There's no way to structure that kind of information spontaneously, and Fi and Ti don't need to.

    Even though you might say that you're taking in the information via S, you're making decisions on the fly in terms of what will make the sauce "good" or "bad". You need to personally know the difference between good and bad beforehand via prior experience. And you need to know it in your bones. Ti lacks this personal relationship in deciding what to do with sense-impressions, so, to Ti, the terms "good" and "bad" are meaningless in this context.

    But Fi naturally discriminates between "good" and "bad" like that -- in terms of personal experience. It strikes other types as odd because, since it's perceptual, it's nonverbal, receptive, and guided by perceptions it can't quite explain. And on a much larger scale than cooking sauces, it derives its principles from prior experience of being human.

    An added benefit of being perceptual (Fi/Ti) as that it doesn't need to take things apart so finely; Fi has the capacity to see things as a whole, apart from the assumptions we've been socialized into accepting. It can then reason wholistically to determine the integrity of our actions. Fe has a stronger emphasis on the prevailing social norms, and thus has a harder time providing this kind of wholistic decision-making.

    But a negative is that it's very hard to express the nonlinear/nonverbal machinations of Fi's decision-making process. Combined with the emphasis on what's personally good or bad in terms of fundamental human values, this difficulty to clearly and linearly lay out one's line of reasoning to others can be interpreted as being dogmatic and polar, and their deeply-held human values aren't always self-evident to other people.

    On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.

    I think others are bothered by Fi because it can appear so dogmatically certain about things that strike others as relative -- concepts like "good" and "bad" -- yet it has difficulty expressing its justification.

    That's how I understand it anyway.


    QFT!!!!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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