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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    ...some people may find the Fi in ENFP more problematic because it is slave to the Extroverted Intuition. This may lead to corrupt values as Fi would be used to support nearly every hunch of the ENFP. Such persons tend to turn radically egocentric.
    I concur. This is my primary issue with ENFPs, when I have issues with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    What happens... is it's like, their conviction is just as strong, but they haven't thought through these values very much, and decide that winning is crushing their opponents rather than convincing them to turn to the light side.

    Sometimes IFPs can get like this, but it's more common to ETJs. Like... if you look at news shows, if there's somebody yelling over the other guy about WHAT IS RIIIIGHT!!!! while what seems to come out of their mouth is utter nonsense, they're probably an ETJ.
    I see that happen, and yet I usually find if I engage an ExTJ, they're more apt to see reason. I just have to be able to support my side using a style of arguing that does not come across as a personal assault to them. Practical rationality will win acknowledgment from them, even if it's begrudged.

    It's the FPs that I just can't do anything with, because if my thinking does not coincide with their values, then I might as well forget any chance of common ground with a Judging function. I can only win them over by approaching them on their own ground, if possible, and reaffirming the relationship somehow. I just DON'T do that well... I feel like I'm tearing something inside if I try, even if outwardly I pull it off to some degree.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I am so blind to my own emotional state that I actually have depended on feedback from others to tell me how I'm feeling.

    A former boss once told me "I can tell you're not happy." And when I thought about it I realized he was right, but I didn't know it up until then. I've seen myself throw things (extremely rare) and observed internally "Hey, I must be angry."

    So, while my internal emotional climate certainly influences my behavior and probably influences my decisions, it does so while taking a complete and total detour around cognition.
    Jennifer, does any of the above make sense to you?

  3. #23
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    (Dissonance and Beat...I'm waiting...lolz)
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fes tend to find Fi disturbing because they expect for values and motivations of people to derive from the oustside. From clear-cut customs ostensible to all, as Js they want human behavior to be predictable. Fi behavior is difficult for them to understand as it has very little grounding in the external world of values.
    yes. Fi is too unpredictable to me. and since it doesn't necessarily correspond with the environment, it can be extremely damaging to the current situation when expressed (doesn't take into account social appropriateness). Fi people make me uncomfortable when they state a value judgment in such a way that creates some sort of non-playful division in the group dynamic.

    i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I've found the Fi of an ETJ much more frightening than that of an IFP, honestly.
    i see where you're going with this, and i almost agree. but i'd say an ETJ in stress is much easier to deal with than an IFP in stress. an ETJ will most likely remain logically consistent at least (on average).

    in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well (of all TJs and FPs, i am by far most frightened by my mom's Fi -- she's an ISTJ)

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Jennifer, does any of the above make sense to you?
    I'm older now, so I recognize my feeling states a lot more quickly before they manifest externally, but yes.

    Often I don't know I'm upset (or happy) until I experience myself doing or saying something... and I'm left wondering, "oh wow, where did THAT come from?"

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well
    Well, that's true. T's tend to downplay the influence of internalized F.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i see where you're going with this, and i almost agree. but i'd say an ETJ in stress is much easier to deal with than an IFP in stress. an ETJ will most likely remain logically consistent at least (on average).

    in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well (of all TJs and FPs, i am by far most frightened by my mom's Fi -- she's an ISTJ)
    Well, how I've always seen it is that inferior functions are like 'kick me' signs taped to your back. Everybody else notices and laughs while the person goes on oblivious until they actually get kicked. Perhaps it's more that introverts tend to be a bit more nonconfrontational about it, as opposed to how ETJs are.

    With ITJs and Fi, I'd say it's less like a kick-me sign and more like them hiding explosives under their parkas.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #26
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    I'm Fi-leading (probably). One thing I hate about it is that I have enough logic as a person to see how illogical my feelings often are. On the other hand, I feel I can't do anything about them. And so the battle goes. I do tend to conceal my feelings in tougher cases, talking only of logic because I feel my feelings in tha situation are irrelevant; but they are certainly there.

    My ENTJ father has mentioned that when we argue, I'll latch onto something insignificant (when related to the bigger picture). Like a time when he said "We want (such and such)", when he had not consulted those others he was talking about. Ticked me off. Anyway, it's stuff like that that I will hound him on, because whether big-picture or not, I feel it ought to be addressed.

  7. #27
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    Fi isn't so bad, i can immediately take in information and tell you right away if its bad or good, because i can feel it. Bad feelings hit me hard, my stomach tightens, my heart feels empty, thoughts race through my head.
    When something is good to me, none of this happens, thus i know its good.

    i can see how this could drive bystanders batty.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    What does that mean?

    What is Fi and why does it drive you nuts?
    I think the fact that it's fundamentally unaccountable (except to itself) is what tends to irritate people the most about it. There's no consistently effectual reasoning/negotiating with it. Fe tends to make itself accountable to commonly-accepted values (or that's my perception, at least). Fi does not. Arguing with someone who accedes to no authority except their own subjective view (substantiated and/or amenable though it may be to persuasion) is often inconclusive at best and futile at worst. Sometimes this may take the form of having the (Fi) person you're arguing with suddenly backing themselves into a corner and assuming the position that "I know I'm right no matter what you say".

    This isn't to say that your logic is invisible to me (for instance). But any changes which need to be made to my values, opinions or actions must be run through my own internal processes before I'll integrate them into my life. This can't be rushed, and if you try then you'll probably be told to fuck off in whatever manner I deem appropriate. Or you'll be ostensibly ignored. I think this is especially annoying to J types who want closure in the conversation. Especially when they feel their position is self-evidently correct.
    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 07-17-2008 at 03:54 PM. Reason: unclear

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    Fi isn't so bad, i can immediately take in information and tell you right away if its bad or good, because i can feel it. Bad feelings hit me hard, my stomach tightens, my heart feels empty, thoughts race through my head.
    When something is good to me, none of this happens, thus i know its good.

    i can see how this could drive bystanders batty.
    Fi is so cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I am so blind to my own emotional state that I actually have depended on feedback from others to tell me how I'm feeling.

    A former boss once told me "I can tell you're not happy." And when I thought about it I realized he was right, but I didn't know it up until then. I've seen myself throw things (extremely rare) and observed internally "Hey, I must be angry."

    So, while my internal emotional climate certainly influences my behavior and probably influences my decisions, it does so while taking a complete and total detour around cognition.
    That must be annoying. =/

    lol is anyone else seeing the irony in this?
    "To find beauty in loss, hope in darkness."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.
    This is one the things I cannot stand the most about dealing with people, those who watch me and immediately react once they've determined they cannot get the proper cues out of me, and their efforts from that point on seem to be trying to rein me in (sometimes I haven't even opened my mouth yet!) . It just makes me totally resistant to anything they've got to say after that point and I want to get as far away from them as possible. I feel a deep repugnance deep in every part of my being towards their desire to bring me into line and mediate (reason?) me into their notion of how I should behave. And if the person tries to pursue me after I try to retreat, ugh, ugh, ugh!

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