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  1. #131
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Well, I gather now from your post and others that it must just be a coincidence that all the people I mentioned before have Fi. Sorry 'bout that.

    edit: Though I don't feel like looking for it, I have read in some description somewhere that ENFPs are the type most afraid/resistant to being "boxed".
    When you refer to being boxed in by type description, I think the "don't tell me how I feel" attitude has to do more with the trait lists than the actual theoretical aspect of how MBTI works, but to get to the theoretical meat of MBTI, one has to first get past the basics and those basics will throw out lots of trait lists and I can see where lots of Fi types would look at a list of those and feel there is nothing in the system that accurately represents them (because they strongly disagree with one or more of the bundled traits). I think another factor is if the person comes to MBTI out of curiosity or if its thrust on them (work or school tests).

  2. #132
    Member songofcalamity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

    Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

    Like me.
    I know of a friend who I think has high Fi and very low Ti. He drives me mad, when you debate/argue with him, he doesn't comprehend the logic you are trying to instill into him, he just thinks his logic is right, so whenever I argue with him, I always end up backing out, because I cannot stand his irrationality and his stubborness. Oh, btw, he is an ENFP. His Fi, driven by his Ne, bugs me alot.

  3. #133
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Default Question, does Fi make you wordy as heck? LOL. No.

    First, thank you for visiting the thread I'm started. I'm so happy I started a salient, meaty thread that doesn't involve naked pictures or Fail pictures (not that there's anything wrong with that per sae) it makes me shed a tear of pride :tear:

    I've just been watching the discussions take off and it's interesting.

    One thing I will say is that it's true -- Fi alone can't and doesn't really do anything IRL. It's how a function is supported/influenced/contradicted (or not) by other functions that makes it happen.

    I think given the age skew of the forum and the presence of lots of college aged kids, I understand why there are so many examples of extreme ENFP that border on stereotypical ESFP. The irresponsbility, selfishness, tantrums, deception, etc.

    I'll chalk it up to maturity and weak Te/Ti to temper it. And for the record, I strongly do NOT identify with these examples. I am beginning to think I must have *excellent* Te (:yim_rolling_on_the_) Even as a child and through my early teenage years I *never* threw tantrums or cried purely for show, I had more important things to do, like run around and get in trouble. Plus, I knew it was a waste of my time. My parents and other adults in my life attest to this (now, if you want sensitive cry baby, check out my INTP brother)

    What I personally find fascinating is the confluence of LIFE EXPERIENCE and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and INDVIDUALITY. Basically, the *decisions* we've all made in our lives to make us who we are.

    I think I grew up learning to act really tough and independent and protect myself. Ne/Fi causes a lot of...eventfulness. I took many conscious steps to own up to myself and develop a tough mind and I guess be...both left and right brained? These are decisions I made for myself and at first, it was like forcing square pegs through round slots.

    Being an extremely sensitive person (Fi with crazy Ne) and feeling as though I was constantly in hostile waters, I knew I had to adjust for the world, not the other way around. And frankly, it is MUCH easier to present as a 'T' and moreover a 'J' as far practical day to day life goes. It is MUCH more effective to say, "This is how I feel because of X, Y, and Z" than to pout, cry, lash out, or be passive-aggressive. I made conscious steps to OWN my emotions and thoughts and be able to back them up in a public sphere. Because I also wanted to be VIABLE in the world and succeed.

    I dunno how much Fi contributes to that, but I think maybe ENFP can feel like an underdog and definitely see the world dramatically. Looking at the world as a case of me vs. it, I decided it will NOT get me down. I'm in it to win it! So I took those steps to win at the game. I frankly am probably much harsher and unsympathetic to others than my XNFP brethren for personal shortcomings that they refuse to take care of.

    It took me a long, arduous, blah blah blah time to get through that tunnel of Fi with weak secondary/tertiary functions to get to the point where I could openly admit to when I'm wrong, what my true motivations are, and just own me without feeling pain, shame, or anger. And also not be so sensitive and REACTIVE and drowning in a knee-jerk isolating Fi soup that made me CRAZY PSYCHO emotional sometimes. 'Cause dude, I could flip a bitch.

    I honest to god want to have a 360 view of myself (and everything/everyone else) and see myself clearly, without ego or hang-ups clouding the view. So maybe Ne saved the day. I also dont' want to be crazy.

    It seems to me a lot of the issues people have with Fi boils down to the person in question not taking responsiblity or being aware of their effects on other people and basically being selfish/self-absorbed and making unfair demands on others.

    I think though that most types and people can be reduced to this flaw -- stubborness and unwillingness to accomodate. With Fi though it's just more... demonstrative.

    The irony though is that generally Fi makes you care a lot about doing the 'right thing'. It's very true, all my life I have been VERY affected by injustice, unfairness, cruelty and really has been a motivating force in my life. I have always identified as an activist/conscientious person/anti-institutional outsider since I was a tween and I know my Fi has a lot to do with that.

    So even though some of these xNFPs described are frankly annoying to be around (according to the posters) and are described as sensitive children, they'll hopefully pull through it and become very strong emotional supports later who can temper their Fi with responsibility and apply it to the greater world.

    Fi in itself is an amazing thing. Kinda kooky to outsiders, sure, but when tempered and channeled, can motivate those to do a lot of good in the world.

    PS Yeah I know I just went off about rah-rah me, but it's technically my thread and I like me dammit, so RAAAAWWWRRRRR :steam: LOL.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    I think another factor is if the person comes to MBTI out of curiosity or if its thrust on them (work or school tests).
    Yes, absolutely the most important aspect I think. One has to already be looking for something like MBTI in order to take a real interest in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    PS Yeah I know I just went off about rah-rah me, but it's technically my thread and I lik me dammit, so RAAAAWWWRRRRR :steam: LOL.
    I enjoyed reading it.

  5. #135
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    As did I. That was definitely for the grown and sexy.

  6. #136
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I honest to god want to have a 360 view of myself (and everything/everyone else) and see myself clearly, without ego or hang-ups clouding the view. So maybe Ne saved the day. I also dont' want to be crazy.

    It seems to me a lot of the issues people have with Fi boils down to the person in question not taking responsiblity or being aware of their effects on other people and basically being selfish/self-absorbed and making unfair demands on others.

    The irony though is that generally Fi makes you care a lot about doing the 'right thing'. It's very true, all my life I have been VERY affected by injustice, unfairness, cruelty and really has been a motivating force in my life.

    Fi in itself is an amazing thing. Kinda kooky to outsiders, sure, but when tempered and channeled, can motivate those to do a lot of good in the world
    .
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  7. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Fi is pretty subtle.

    It's one of the "perceptual" decision making processes (along with Ti), which means it's good at making decisions in the middle of massive, nonlinear hits of unstructured information (Te and Fe need their info structured to deal with it).

    But unlike Ti, it's more personalized; it encourages a personal relationship with the evolving information. But a prerequisite for any personal relationship is prior experience to determine what's acceptable or not.

    An *extremely* simple-minded example of how Fi works is cooking. Say you're making sauce. You need to taste your sauce as you're cooking it and add whatever ingredients you need to make it taste "good". There's no way to structure that kind of information spontaneously, and Fi and Ti don't need to.

    Even though you might say that you're taking in the information via S, you're making decisions on the fly in terms of what will make the sauce "good" or "bad". You need to personally know the difference between good and bad beforehand via prior experience. And you need to know it in your bones. Ti lacks this personal relationship in deciding what to do with sense-impressions, so, to Ti, the terms "good" and "bad" are meaningless in this context.

    But Fi naturally discriminates between "good" and "bad" like that -- in terms of personal experience. It strikes other types as odd because, since it's perceptual, it's nonverbal, receptive, and guided by perceptions it can't quite explain. And on a much larger scale than cooking sauces, it derives its principles from prior experience of being human.

    An added benefit of being perceptual (Fi/Ti) as that it doesn't need to take things apart so finely; Fi has the capacity to see things as a whole, apart from the assumptions we've been socialized into accepting. It can then reason wholistically to determine the integrity of our actions. Fe has a stronger emphasis on the prevailing social norms, and thus has a harder time providing this kind of wholistic decision-making.

    But a negative is that it's very hard to express the nonlinear/nonverbal machinations of Fi's decision-making process. Combined with the emphasis on what's personally good or bad in terms of fundamental human values, this difficulty to clearly and linearly lay out one's line of reasoning to others can be interpreted as being dogmatic and polar, and their deeply-held human values aren't always self-evident to other people.

    On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.

    I think others are bothered by Fi because it can appear so dogmatically certain about things that strike others as relative -- concepts like "good" and "bad" -- yet it has difficulty expressing its justification.

    That's how I understand it anyway.
    This is one of the best descriptions of Fi that I've seen. And described by a Ti! I've found most Fe see it as a random process, this sort of grounds it a bit in reality, and shows how it isn't guess work and is by no means just following a hunch.

  8. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    yes. Fi is too unpredictable to me. and since it doesn't necessarily correspond with the environment, it can be extremely damaging to the current situation when expressed (doesn't take into account social appropriateness). Fi people make me uncomfortable when they state a value judgment in such a way that creates some sort of non-playful division in the group dynamic.

    i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.
    We shake the web, normally not unknowingly. At one extreme it can be destructive, at the other extreme it can be like MLK. Sometimes social norms and harmony are what is best, sometimes they are evil as all f**k. To everything there is a season..etc.

    Can see what you mean by can't reason us out of it though. If you need to stop an ENFP in this sort of situation argue the effect of his actions rather than the facts they are based on. And move him to think through it more till he finds a better method of resolve. Judgment on the specifics of what to do is normally more of a weakness for us than perception about people and the situation. Not saying we don't normally have good enough judgment to get the effect we intended, just talking us through it can lower collateral .

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    We shake the web, normally not unknowingly. At one extreme it can be destructive, at the other extreme it can be like MLK. Sometimes social norms and harmony are what is best, sometimes they are evil as all f**k. To everything there is a season..etc.

    Can see what you mean by can't reason us out of it though. If you need to stop an ENFP in this sort of situation argue the effect of his actions rather than the facts they are based on. And move him to think through it more till he finds a better method of resolve. Judgment on the specifics of what to do is normally more of a weakness for us than perception about people and the situation. Not saying we don't normally have good enough judgment to get the effect we intended, just talking us through it can lower collateral .
    From what I have read, MLK was most likely INFJ. Having Fe does not mean you can't rock the boat and go against social norms. Just like Fi users, if an Fe user's values are violated, watch out. Also, "because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions." Portrait of an INFJ This means that if social norms go against their strongly-held vision, INFJs tend to flat out reject them.

    "Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968) lived the life of oppression in the southern part of the United States during the post Great Depression era. As an INFJ type, King learned his philosophy of non-violence from Gandhi and applied it to the civil rights movement. King's idealism and willingness to suffer for his ideas was a main impetus for desegregation."
    MBTI Personality Types

    Most other sources say MLK is INFJ but a couple sources say ENFJ.
    Another example of a Fe user rocking the boat is Nelson Mandela (most likely INFJ) of South Africa.

  10. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by IDK123 View Post
    From what I have read, MLK was most likely INFJ. Having Fe does not mean you can't rock the boat and go against social norms. Just like Fi users, if an Fe user's values are violated, watch out. Also, "because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions." Portrait of an INFJ This means that if social norms go against their strongly-held vision, INFJs tend to flat out reject them.

    "Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968) lived the life of oppression in the southern part of the United States during the post Great Depression era. As an INFJ type, King learned his philosophy of non-violence from Gandhi and applied it to the civil rights movement. King's idealism and willingness to suffer for his ideas was a main impetus for desegregation."
    MBTI Personality Types

    Most other sources say MLK is INFJ but a couple sources say ENFJ.
    Another example of a Fe user rocking the boat is Nelson Mandela (most likely INFJ) of South Africa.
    The source you chose wasn't really the best, but I think you're right . I just watched the speech again. He's definitely an I, and his overuse of metaphors makes me think INFJ (though the preaching language was intentional for effect with the speech).

    Anyway my point stands about ENFPs, we can go that way sometimes and go the other way sometimes.

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