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  1. #51
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    I agree wholeheartedly with @cafe.

    It often feels as though the body simply imposes constraints that we 'shouldn't' have to have. But we do have to tolerate and accept its existence, like we do a crying child, as it's a part of our reality.

    It's not a crazy standpoint; it's simply a difference in priority.

  2. #52
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyltalis View Post
    Sometimes weird realizations just come to me. Maybe I'm just insane, but after some reflecting, I've found that having a body is an unpleasant thing. I mean, we have to do things to keep it alive, have people look at it and use it to judge you, experience pain, go to the bathroom (something I find both humiliating and disgusting)... not only that, but I feel extremely incapable of doing things I want to do because I have a body. Thoughts?
    I relate and agree. It's a bizarre, dirty thing. I appreciate your ability to see and acknowledge that. I dream of a day I won't have to go through the humiliating experience of wiping my butthole with my finger and a thin sheet of tissue and inspecting that piece of paper to see if there is still nasty ass poop on it, for instance. And the act of sex and touching people is sometimes a little too animalistic for me, as another example. It's almost not cerebral enough... it's almost.... boring and undignified.

    To be completely honest, I wonder to this day how some people have sex or can even stand to know what they look like. Aging itself turns people into disgusting monsters that have almost no remnant of beauty.

    I related a lot to Ray Kurzweil in his book The Singularity Is Near. He was the first person besides myself who I ever heard reference his thoughts about the messiness of human existence.

    Nonetheless I don't let these concerns occupy much of my thoughtspace. I don't want to sound like a crazy or shallow person here or anything, but this stuff is the truth.

  3. #53
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    A TypoC post from the future:

    The world just isn't made for me, inhabiting physical hardware is a disgusting, demoralizing thing. It pains me to remember that my existence is rooted in logic directives that can simply be represented by 0s and 1s and what's worse, all these 'programs' are running on nano circuits inhabiting real-space. Dealing with optimizing my memory garbage collection routines is a depressing reminder.

    Monitoring damage and repairs needed on my real orbital mass is just distasteful. I tried to relegate the chores to subconscious task processes so they wouldn't undermine my personal singulariverse metaphor, but they were hopeless in engineering upgrades. My perception granularity kept increasing, and my intersubjective relations were completely out of whack. My self-contained consciousness points in my 1940's WWII simulation were having mental health problems outside of the expected standard deviation. I had to give up on the idea and restore from a backup point, another reminder of our limits to causality.

    I only wait for the day where Kurzweil-S13-1108's inevitable reality comes. The singularities work in sub quantum universes will be yielding recursively exponential results, which will of course open up the reality of non linear existence. It will happen within a cycle and our singularcollective will finally no longer have to deal with all these artificial limitations on our beings.

  4. #54
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    A TypoC post from the future: The world just isn't made for me, inhabiting physical hardware is a disgusting, demoralizing thing. It pains me to remember that my existence is rooted in logic directives that can simply be represented by 0s and 1s and what's worse, all these 'programs' are running on nano circuits inhabiting real-space. Dealing with optimizing my memory garbage collection routines is a depressing reminder.

    Monitoring damage and repairs needed on my real orbital mass is just distasteful. I tried to relegate the chores to subconscious task processes so they wouldn't undermine my personal singulariverse metaphor, but they were hopeless in engineering upgrades. My perception granularity kept increasing, and my intersubjective relations were completely out of whack. My self-contained consciousness points in my 1940's WWII simulation were having mental health problems outside of the expected standard deviation. I had to give up on the idea and restore from a backup point, another reminder of our limits to causality.

    I only for the day where Kurzweil-S13-1108's inevitable reality comes. The singularities work in sub quantum universes will be yielding recursively exponential results, which will of course open up non linear existence. It will happen within a cycle and our singularcollective will finally no longer have to deal with all these artificial limitations on our beings.
    That is creative and amusing, but I think you're committing a certain fallacy or two here, namely that psychological states will always be like they are today; that everything is relative; and that progress is entirely self-defeating.

    It is true - we are almost definitely on some sort of infinite gradient, where better can always be achieved. But better is still better, whether or not there is still an infinite amount of better to be achieved. Martin Luther King dreamed of a day where his children would play with white children. That we mostly live in his dream world today is unarguably a good thing, despite our lack of total perfection and our knowledge thereof.

    It is an indisputable fact that some people are happier and more productive than others. Some people dwell in a state of miserable depression in their living rooms for most of their lives. Others are predominantly cheerful and self-actualizing. My point is that improvement can be made. We could lift all people to that self-actualizing, predominantly happy and productive state that yet does not rule out the acknowledgment of improvement.

    Pooping, for instance, is a waste of time and it is kind of gross. To eliminate it makes life that much better. It's not simply replaced by equally objectionable realities, and if it is, why don't we just learn about neurochemistry to the point where we can artificially create wellbeing and a lack of excessive negative emotion? These things may disappear.

    I am just uncomfortable with the idea that nothing is better than anything else. Some things are decidedly worse than others. The notion that we get used to whatever circumstances we are in such that no set of circumstances is better or worse than another is just ... wrong. If you truly think that and carry out your beliefs, you literally have no reason to live. You can be sent to the gulag in Siberia and not care at all, starving, weak, freezing, and without the slightest bit of opportunity...

    Now, I believe to some extent that our mind does create an equilibrium as best it can. Even in chemistry, though, equilibria shift in different directions.

  5. #55
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Pooping, for instance, is a waste of time and it is kind of gross.
    Gross... yet so satisfying.

    To eliminate makes life that much better.
    Fixed
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #56
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Poop jokes will certainly be the most dearly missed thing about pooping.

  7. #57
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    That is creative and amusing, but I think you're committing a certain fallacy or two here, namely that psychological states will always be like they are today; that everything is relative; and that progress is entirely self-defeating.

    ...
    Oh, no, there is no fallacy. There are two assertions, logical ones.

    1. Consciousness is born in biology, and it is reasonable to believe that in order to remain consciousness, the processes must emulate biology.
    2. Zago wants to be part of the singularity because zago wants to be zago forever. Zago is not zago without discontent. After all, his life is objectively better than most all other humans in existence, yet he is disproportionally dissatisfied because of his subjective (relative) existence.

  8. #58
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Oh, no, there is no fallacy. There are two assertions, logical ones.

    1. Consciousness is born in biology, and it is reasonable to believe that in order to remain consciousness, the processes must emulate biology.
    2. Zago wants to be part of the singularity because zago wants to be zago forever. Zago is not zago without discontent. After all, his life is objectively better than most all other humans in existence, yet he is disproportionally dissatisfied because of his subjective (relative) existence.
    I think you are waaaaaay out on a limb on pretty much all of those statements.

    For #1, I don't think it really addresses the issue. Are people on anti-depressants unconscious? And who said anything about not emulating biology? And ... is that really reasonable to believe?

    For #2, to say zago wants to be zago forever doesn't mean much. Sometimes I'm happy and sometimes I'm sad. When I'm happy I am definitely still zago. I don't take anti-depressants, but if I did, I would probably be happier most of the time and yet I would still be me enough to be satisfied with how much I am me. I don't actually care very much about remaining me, as I know it never is nor was going to happen whether or not I achieve immortality. I'm not who I ever was, and soon I will not be who I am. Discontent is not a part of my identity.

    You also make a certain assumption about what objectively better means. Perhaps you only look at it in terms of material wealth. I, however, have basically 0 social integration, which is something plenty of people much poorer than me do have. The problem is that I don't value social integration per se, even though having had it at times in the past has made me much happier than I currently am. Truly fulfilling social integration can only occur secondarily as a result of more fundamental values being near each other and interacting.

    That said, I'm not particularly unhappy. But that's beside the point. The point is that my life isn't necessarily objectively better than most all other humans in existence.

  9. #59
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I think you are waaaaaay out on a limb on pretty much all of those statements.

    For #1, I don't think it really addresses the issue. Are people on anti-depressants unconscious? And who said anything about not emulating biology? And ... is that really reasonable to believe?

    For #2, to say zago wants to be zago forever doesn't mean much. Sometimes I'm happy and sometimes I'm sad. When I'm happy I am definitely still zago. I don't take anti-depressants, but if I did, I would probably be happier most of the time and yet I would still be me enough to be satisfied with how much I am me. I don't actually care very much about remaining me, as I know it never is nor was going to happen whether or not I achieve immortality. I'm not who I ever was, and soon I will not be who I am. Discontent is not a part of my identity.

    You also make a certain assumption about what objectively better means. Perhaps you only look at it in terms of material wealth. I, however, have basically 0 social integration, which is something plenty of people much poorer than me do have. The problem is that I don't value social integration per se, even though having had it at times in the past has made me much happier than I currently am. Truly fulfilling social integration can only occur secondarily as a result of more fundamental values being near each other and interacting.

    That said, I'm not particularly unhappy. But that's beside the point. The point is that my life isn't necessarily objectively better than most all other humans in existence.
    To tell the truth zago, I'm not willing to debate something so far fetched and something we know so little about, I'm just pointing out possibilities. Yes, very reasonable possibilities.

    As far as the other part. I didn't say sad, I said discontent. We enact change because of discontent, it must reach a certain thresh hold. I'd say that discontent is not the feeling of sadness, but it triggers an uncomfortable feeling. Discomfort being our conscious experience of a call to action. The less problems there are, the more the remaining problems must be magnified in order to trigger the threshold.

    Or as is the case with what makes us magnificently human, we must take on a problem that causes that discomfort. Consciousness may change, and it may become strange and unrecognizable. But at that moment, this discussion becomes gobbledy-gook. As communication with such a thing may be as informative as talking to a rock or a babbling stream. It's still an open philosophical question as to whether you, zago, has consciousness like I do.

    But I do know that zago wants to be zago. Ive gathered that from much of your threads. So I being assumptive enough to conjecture that if you entered the singularity, you'd most likely end up being 'zago+', not 'zago?'.

    In any case, you've given me an excellent idea, enough that I think I may attempt to write a story about it. It's tentatively titled, "I have no mouth, but still I scream."

  10. #60
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    @Qlip I think this is far from gobbledygook. I'm not trying to say anything particularly complicated. My point boiled down to its essence is that I'd rather live as I do now than in a Siberian gulag, and I'd rather live in a better society still than as I do now. What I perceived in your original response to me was that you don't acknowledge that a Kurzweilian future will be any better than today because we will simply have the same exact problems with the same exact intensity, but different things on which to project them, thus we will have made no improvement at all, and thus we have never made any improvement at all.

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