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  1. #181
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Do u need a special permit to park your unicorn?

    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  2. #182
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    No need to park the unicorn. I never get off it
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  3. #183
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    Why would I wait to see if someone who is ignoring me is actually interested? So I can continue to be subjected to their confusing dance of mediocre interest? That doesn't feel good. I like men who make me feel awesome. That's it. No exceptions
    I completely know how you feel.

  4. #184
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Posting this question somewhere more on-topic than where I'd been discussing this issue previously.

    I'm an ESTJ with a lot of NFJ friends and family. I appreciate their interpersonal savvy, kindness, and creativity. They appreciate my steadiness and directness. I've heard from other NFJs that STJs appeal to them because they can take overwhelmingly detailed situations and reduce them to a sentence or two -- which calms the NFJs down immensely and helps them take action.

    I acknowledge, here, that NFJs require time to Ni-Ti-dump, which I've talked with other NFJs on the forum about before. They need someone to talk at, so they can lay out all their thoughts and put everything in order. For an STJ, this seems like a prime opportunity to reduce that dumping to a brief summary and piece of advice -- which, as stated above, is one of their great strengths. They recognize this about themselves, and if they know NFJs well, they know that NFJs don't just appreciate that skill, but sometimes NEED it as well.

    So, I'm having a difficult time recognizing when NFJs are using me as a sounding board without wanting my input, versus wanting someone to calm them down with Si-Te quick and reliable conclusions. In both cases, they vent at me and are stressed. In neither case will they ask me for my input. Sometimes they thank me, sometimes they are dissatisfied because they wanted me to give external validation (for their Fe), and/or just listen without presenting anything for them.

    Not to mention, it's also impossible for me to distinguish that Ni-Ti-dump process, which is normal and natural, with a Ni-Ti loop, which is unhealthy. This is because if I were ever to dump information on someone similarly, it would NOT be healthy or normal, and I would need someone to snap me out of it -- because I don't use Ni or Ti and therefore don't process similarly.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by EJCC; 06-18-2014 at 12:28 PM. Reason: typos!
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #185
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Thoughts?
    For me (INFJ), Ni-Ti analysis is pretty much always about getting to a conscious clarity that I need like breathable air whenever Fe-aux starts streaming too much external noise/static/bullshit for me to clearly "see" the Ni-Se perceptual information about the landscape around me. Basically using Ti to get back to center - a very energy-intensive process for me.

    Someone else summarizing is useful to me specifically when what they communicate is clear resonating truth that brings things into focus with a snap. And advice generally isn't useful to me at all (I can figure out what is best for me to do when I have the necessary clarity about what's around me).

    If you have any way to honestly self-assess the level of clear truth in your summarizing, I'd suggest using that.

    And someone else seeing it as a need for me to "snap out of it" in some emotional of psychological sense is unlikely to be useful to me. I can see where that might apply as a description from the vantage point of dealing me when I am perceptually disoriented and need to re-orient toward sharp clarity of conscious perception, but that's a different way to see that concept. I don't know what it means to you.

    So again, if it were me you were interacting with, I'd advise you to first ruthlessly assess, inside yourself, the actual extent of rigor and clarity related to basic truth you are offering in any summary - and then only offer the summaries that are at the very top of the barrel for that. If it's really rigorous in that way, for me, it will be more likely to be useful. In contrast, if it's woven in with your own bullshit/issues/distractions/need to calm things down etc etc, it's less likely to be useful for someone like me because then I have to expend more energy teasing out the truth from the distortions in input from you as well, and that need pulls against the whole point of Ni-Ti analysis in the first place. For me.

    But then ... I may not be representative of the people you know, for one reason or another. And, too, my experience is that INFJ versus ENFJ is a big deal - if my limited experience with INFJ/ENFJ interaction is any guide, ENFJ's Fe-dom orients them more toward fitting data into value narratives (judging dominant) and INFJ's Ni-dom orients us more toward raw information inflow far more than the specific narrative into which it fits.

    Hope that helps at least a little. I probably won't be up for more dialogue on this (sorry, this site is not my favorite space), but I'm posting this anyway in hopes it will be of some practical use in your real life interactions. Best wishes!

  6. #186
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Posting this question somewhere more on-topic than where I'd been discussing this issue previously.

    I'm an ESTJ with a lot of NFJ friends and family. I appreciate their interpersonal savvy, kindness, and creativity. They appreciate my steadiness and directness. I've heard from other NFJs that STJs appeal to them because they can take overwhelmingly detailed situations and reduce them to a sentence or two -- which calms the NFJs down immensely and helps them take action.

    I acknowledge, here, that NFJs require time to Ni-Ti-dump, which I've talked with other NFJs on the forum about before. They need someone to talk at, so they can lay out all their thoughts and put everything in order. For an STJ, this seems like a prime opportunity to reduce that dumping to a brief summary and piece of advice -- which, as stated above, is one of their great strengths. They recognize this about themselves, and if they know NFJs well, they know that NFJs don't just appreciate that skill, but sometimes NEED it as well.
    I haven't put a lot of thought into your specific questions, so my reply is going to be more general information that might prove to be useful.

    So, I'm having a difficult time recognizing when NFJs are using me as a sounding board without wanting my input, versus wanting someone to calm them down with Si-Te quick and reliable conclusions. In both cases, they vent at me and are stressed. In neither case will they ask me for my input. Sometimes they thank me, sometimes they are dissatisfied because they wanted me to give external validation (for their Fe), and/or just listen without presenting anything for them.
    I think you're SOL with telling the two apart because I think we can't even tell them apart. I've had times where I'm venting just to vent and someone throws a piece of advice out and it hits just right and gets me to stop venting and move towards putting a solution into action. Yes, validation feels good and calms me down, but it generally doesn't end up moving me towards a solution. I'm coming to believe that most of my venting has been unproductive in the long run. I now think I vent because I see a problem and I see some sort of solution (this is how it should be) and I'm looking for ways to enact that particular solution, to the exclusion of other solutions, but I'm missing information or tools that will get me to that preplanned solution. Or I could have the tools and information, but I don't like any of the possible solutions, so I'm avoiding doing anything. Or, my ideal solution is just so unrealistic that I will never be able to act on it. So, reframing what you said, venting can be a way to look for those tools and information and/or it can be a way to calm my own anxiety about the situation without actually having to deal with the situation.

    Now, most likely any ideal INFJ solution will involve not causing conflict or discomfort, so any suggestions that might involve conflict or discomfort will automatically cause me discomfort and be dismissed as undoable. I can think of two possible ways around this, but there's no guarantee that they'll work. One is choreographing the dance--you know what I'm talking about. This seems to me to be a similar area in me that I see in my big sis--a place where I'm reluctant to move from a safe place and risk change. I think I've seen suggestions that fit this idea in your blog--so you would validate, but also cause some discomfort in order to get the dance to shift a little at a time until new steps have been accepted into, and become part of, the dance. Two is modeling the action you think will work rather than just explaining it. Again, this seems to me to be a similar area in me that I see in my big sis--a place where I need to physically have something shown to me, see that it works, and then practice several times until I get it and feel comfortable with it. So, you could point out to the INFJ that the next time the situation comes up and it's appropriate for you to do so, that you will do what you've suggested so s/he can see the suggestion in action and see what results from it. If you want, you could offer to role play with the INFJ so that s/he can practice. Both of these will involve work on your part, so it's also perfectly fine to decide that you don't want to put that much effort into it and choose to tell the INFJ directly that you like him/her, but you no longer want to listen to the venting. Be prepared for some INFJs to take this personally and pull away from you.

    Not to mention, it's also impossible for me to distinguish that Ni-Ti-dump process, which is normal and natural, with a Ni-Ti loop, which is unhealthy. This is because if I were ever to dump information on someone similarly, it would NOT be healthy or normal, and I would need someone to snap me out of it -- because I don't use Ni or Ti and therefore don't process similarly.

    Thoughts?
    The off-the-top-of-my-head answer is that with the Ni-Ti loop you wouldn't see any forward movement towards solving the problem. In fact, you might see things getting worse--as in the complaints getting more catastrophic over time.

    ETA: I was re-reading what I wrote and thinking that gosh, I'm a lot of work to deal with.

    ETA2: @bolded--Yeah, I can be bad about asking for input. Sometimes I think I'm asking for input, but I'm doing it indirectly and it's not understood as asking for input.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #187
    Member Tem's Avatar
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    Hey guys.

    I thought I was an INTJ before but I think that I'm actually an INFJ, so I wanted to drop by to say hello and maybe see if my viewpoints might click with a few of you.

    Ultimately what I want is to create a large-scale environment where people are treated equally, are given honest chances, and everyone is treated with respect and given the opportunity to be as happy as possible. I want to subdue corruption, greed, unjust treatment, disrespect.

    While I do recognize that this is an ambitious idealism, I do channel this vision into my everyday experience, making contributions or changes large or small towards slowly forming this image. I fight for what I think is right.. a LOT. I'm also a vicious fighter, there are few lengths I wouldn't go to leave my viewpoint impressioned on top.

    I'm highly expressive with what I feel is right and what I stand for -- one of the first things I communicate to others is how they affect my experience, and how I want things to be. I also notice that with others I tend to really enjoy connecting with them and exploring who they are, trying to find ways that we can find common ground or that I can be of assistance.

    I can be an extremely logical and cold person, but this usually takes a SLIGHT bit of effort -- not too much but it does feel somewhat of an effort. One thing that I find is really important to me is that EVERYTHING makes sense to me -- if something seems fishy or not quite logically connecting (and I'm really good at spotting logical inconsistencies or noticing that a piece of a puzzle is missing or for example someone mentioned that they will discuss 5 things but only discussed 4) I will be the first to notice.

    I tend to do a lot of rationalization and trying to find explanations for everything that I see before me -- but my area of focus is not really in the impersonal realm, it is more in the realm of systems, people, the world, meaning, life.

    Holler at me if you feel the same, because I would love to finally find people that are truly like me!

    -Tem

  8. #188
    Member Tem's Avatar
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    Do any goddamn INFJs even exist on this thread?

  9. #189
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tem View Post
    Do any goddamn INFJs even exist on this thread?
    There's a few here.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  10. #190
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tem View Post
    Do any goddamn INFJs even exist on this thread?
    No, only the blessed ones.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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