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  1. #91
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    @EJCC, I'm going to guess it's something like Eilonwy said about being conflicted about whether or not what *I* want should really matter. I know it's aggravating to put up with, but for what it's worth I think it's even more aggravating to be this way. It's confusing to think "Well if my friend wants to invite other friends along, then that's what I want her to do"....and then to have negative *feelings* suddenly appear. Imagine brushing a feather against your skin, and instead of it feeling like you think it will (soft)- it feels like sandpaper instead. There's this "Wait.....what??" thing that happens. Those negative feelings seem to come from nowhere, and it feels like they shouldn't be there because "If we don't both want it to be just the two of us, then I don't want that either" seems like a reasonable enough resolution. So when it feels totally different than we think it will, there's just a bunch of confusion about whether the disappointed feelings (that believe it or not, really do come as a surprise) are reasonable or not.

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  2. #92
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    INFJ is my "church buddy" on Sundays. I ask if it's okay to start inviting other folks along who are part of our campus church group. She says yes, enthusiastically.

    Months later, her roommate lets slip that INFJ thought I "ruined her tradition". INFJ gets mad at roommate, acknowledges that now she feels like I "like the other people better". INFJ is probably exaggerating a bit about ruining/preference but clearly would rather that it just be the two of us again.

    I stop inviting other people to church besides her, to make a point of bringing the tradition back around. I mention it to the INFJ in the hopes that she'll be pleased. She replies with "No! It's totally fine that they come! Really. "

    Do I assume that she's trying to be accommodating, go with my gut, and keep doing what I'm doing, against her direct advice? (I'm pretty sure that's what I should do but I'm on this thread just to make sure)
    This is what is known as a moral dilemma. It really isn't type-related, in my opinion.

    She isn't trying to be accommodating, she's trying to be GOOD. This is church, which is a group activity, and saying "no" to inviting the others in your group would be WRONG. And as others note, she probably didn't know that she'd feel annoyed by doing the right thing. She probably feels ashamed that bringing others into the group makes her feel bad.

    Doing the right thing doesn't always mean feeling good afterwards, otherwise being good would be remarkably easy. So, I would judge that she definitely DOES want you to bring your friends along, as it is a good thing, in her mind. Typology does come into play, here, a bit. Ni doms aren't so much "steady" (like Si types), but rather "willful" and "determined." She is determined to do the right thing, even though it loses her that special time the two of you shared.

    So, back to the non-typological part. I would suggest that you find a different activity where it's OK to not invite the others. For example, if your connection with her revolves around religion, then perhaps a Bible study that is just the two of you. Or if it really is just a friendship, then perhaps just hanging out, or going to the movies, where it's just the two of you.

    A bit more typological info: there is definitely an introversion/extroversion conflict going on. Introverts of whatever type usually connect best one-on-one. Bringing in the extra people broke that connection. The fix is to reestablish it in a different one-on-one setting.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #93
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    @Eilonwy @Z Buck McFate

    Take your time No problem.

    I see where you guys are coming from. My personal philosophy is that the person with the weaker preference should defer to the person with the stronger opinion. She clearly cares a lot, per my first post here, but I am honestly not broken up at all by the idea that I should defer to her. I could care less either way except that one would keep her from feeling resentful, so my choice is clear. The question is how to convince her that I'm not being inauthentic or lying.



    Edit: Just saw your post @uumlau. Interesting. I'm not sure what else we could do one-on-one but I will think on it.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  4. #94
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @EJCC,

    I'm going to backtrack and ask you some questions before answering again.

    What uumlau brought up is a good point. Is this the only one-on-one time the two of you have together?
    Is this a pattern with her (not making a clear choice) or a one time thing?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #95
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    @EJCC,

    I'm going to backtrack and ask you some questions before answering again.

    What uumlau brought up is a good point. Is this the only one-on-one time the two of you have together?
    Is this a pattern with her (not making a clear choice) or a one time thing?
    - Yes, this is our only one-on-one time -- besides coffee before church and sometimes lunch after, which is always just us. That had never changed.
    - She is always very sweet and accommodating on the outside and venting afterwards to her close friends -- if that's what you mean. Extremely non-confrontational.
    Edit: I don't associate her with decisiveness or indecisiveness. If that manes sense.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #96
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I agree that it's about wanting to want to do the right/kind thing and feeling petty and selfish for not wanting it. It makes you feel like a sulky preschooler when you feel that way.

    I was just that way a few days ago when my mom felt obligated to bring a friend to the outing I planned for my mom's b-day. I know her friend is lonely and stuff but I wanted it to just be family.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #97
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I have paid for both groceries and gas and tried, sometimes successfully, to leave without them.

    And I hate those misunderstandings where I know I'm following 'the rules' but it doesn't look like I am and I look (and feel) like a jerk at the same time I feel justified in my actions. Icky feels when that happens, but I think it's unavoidable unless you have zero self-awareness or are a complete doormat.
    Yes, this is kind of how I feel. Except I get all resentful sometimes because I want to rebel against what I perceive as unfair rules- but at the same time it seems to be important to me to follow them, or else I wouldn't care. I dunno, maybe Fe and Fi fight inside my unconscious mind. I believe more in fairness than rules. But then again rules are supposed to be for the purpose of establishing fairness.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I agree that it's about wanting to want to do the right/kind thing and feeling petty and selfish for not wanting it. It makes you feel like a sulky preschooler when you feel that way.

    I was just that way a few days ago when my mom felt obligated to bring a friend to the outing I planned for my mom's b-day. I know her friend is lonely and stuff but I wanted it to just be family.
    Omg, exactly! I was just thinking to myself that day sometimes I feel like a little girl in a world full of adults. Meh. And I have such an issue with feeling selfish.

  8. #98
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @EJCC, I tried to keep this brief, so if anything doesn't make sense, ask me and I'll try to explain it better.

    First, all of this is only my opinion from my perspective. It in no way invalidates anything anyone else has offered up. Take from it what will work for you and disregard the rest.

    My take on it isn't looking at it as a moral dilemma or type-related; I'm looking at it as a decision-making and responsibility problem, from my pov, based on my experiences.

    I have problems with this kind of "what I want vs what I should do" decision as well. My default is to end up deciding in favor of what I think I should do over what I want. The problems come up when I don't take responsibility for that decision, or when I try to put the responsibility for my decision on someone else.

    What I mean by taking responsibility for my decision is:
    1) I don't complain about it as if it were forced upon me and I had no part in it.
    2) If I figure out later that I'm not happy with what I decided, then I need to talk to the people involved and see if I can change my decision.
    3) If I let someone else make the decision for me, I need to abide by it, or else I need to step up and say what I want.
    4) If I'm so conflicted that I can't decide, I should explain that to the other people involved and see if some acceptable mutual decision can be made together.

    I wasn't really taught to take responsibility for my decisions in this way, so I still find it difficult to do with certain people and in some situations, but I've found that when I do take responsibility in this way, I make better decisions and I can move on from them and not keep dwelling on them.

    This is why I suggested talking with your friend. She might think that she is being responsible by choosing what she should do over what she wants, and, in a way, she is; however, she's not taking responsibility for choosing that way. Do you see the difference?*


    I hesitate to talk it out with her, because I see these two things happening:

    1) INFJ tries to be accommodating and tell me that she's fine either way. I don't believe her.
    2) I tell her I'm fine either way and would be happiest doing whatever doesn't make her feel hurt. She doesn't believe me.

    Can you see that barrier being broken? If so, I'll take your advice and try it. Thank you again.
    You've brought up real and valid concerns about talking with your friend. I can't guarantee that either of these things won't happen if you do talk with her. Perhaps there are some other ways to approach her. I'll keep trying to think of some, if you want.

    So, for now, you can go with your gut, keep it one-on-one, and not talk with her at all, if that's what you decide to do. Or, you can make whatever decision you want to make, and explain to her how you're taking responsibility for your decision so that maybe she'll learn from your example--no guarantees. Or you can put the decision back on her, explaining how you feel it's her responsibility and not yours--no guarantees.

    *ETA: In other words, your friend is making her decision out of a feeling of obligation, but then isn't holding herself accountable for her own feelings in the matter.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #99
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    How do you know if someone is an INFJ or an ISFJ? ISFJs can be really oblivious to the outside world, right?
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  10. #100
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    How do you know if someone is an INFJ or an ISFJ? ISFJs can be really oblivious to the outside world, right?
    More like oblivious to the inside world. : P

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