[ENFJ] INTP + ENFJ = ?

[baccheion]

Statistically, if I remember correctly, INFJ females are usually the least happy in their romantic relationships and the partners of male INTPs are the least happy. I don't know what that means, except that both types must kind of suck at relationships or something.

Rambling:

Really (more about the INFJ being the least satisfied, I hear about the INTP thing all the time)? The only reason I wonder is because I'm usually hearing from INTPs about how happy they are in their relationship with INFJs, and how long the relationships last, versus what happens with other types. Maybe they are happy while the INFJ isn't so much, but that didn't seem like the case. I should find this out. I keep seeking out INFJs and it's been hit or miss. I've even gone as far as scraping OkCupid (dating site) to see which types I match best with on average, and the number one spot is pretty much a tie between INFJ and ENFP and after them there is a huge gap and then the rest of the types. I'm glad NFs are overrepresented in the female population on OkCupid, because this ups my odds of finding one I'm compatible with. The data did kinda throw me, I guess, because while there tends to be an instant connection between myself and ENFP women, it usually turns sour at some point (they start projecting and showing just how much attention/support they need to be happy). I guess what I'm saying is that I hope the same doesn't happen with INFJs.

Actually, I have a sister that's INFJ, so I have some sort of lifelong experience with them that should help. She always prefered it when I was in kind of a weaker position (victimized, etc), and I'm not sure I like that, but otherwise everything was ok. This is a big deal given the fact that I asked her to register on OkCupid and answer the questions so I could run my script, and our match % and friend % ended up in the 60's (not good). So if things were this decent with someone having such a low match, then I'm hopeful for what will happen when the match % goes up into the 80's and 90's. Then again, maybe my sister has a lot of annoyances/problems with me that she's just bottles up. She does that kinda stuff. I would ask an INFJ-INTP couple to register on the site to see their match and how well it relates to their experience, but I'm too afraid it will ruin their relationship.

I heard of another study where NFs are usually the most satisfied with other NFs, followed by NTs, and SPs are usually the happiest with NTs (even though NTs don't like the SPs as much), but that wasn't very useful because it didn't break it down on a type-to-type basis.

Also, I wonder about that study you mention. What type were the unhappy INFJs with, and what types were the poor-performing INTPs with. The INTP-ISFJ thing happens often, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's them complaining, but I'm sure the INTP isn't exactly rico suave anyway. Also, the INTP-INFJ pairing seems like the happiest for INTPs (which is what I was looking at), not necessarily the most common. But then again, if the INFJ isn't that damn happy, then what's the point.

Why do you suppose / how do you know those failed relationships that usually with ISFJs?

I don't remember all the details of what I did. Maybe I was on another forum, and the most common (and most dissatisfying) relationship was between an INTP and an ISFJ, usually with the ISFJ having approached the INTP. A relationship between an INTP and an ISFJ would end, and when the INTP next partnered with an INFJ, they began to report success (especially when they were older). Next was INTP and ENFP, and that relationship was also hit or miss, with INTPs (or maybe both parties) universally agreeing that it's a great match-up for friendship, but almost always disastrous when taken to the next level. With the INTP-ENFP pairing, gender seemed to matter, as female INTPs reported more disastrous results with ENFPs than males did.

 

[cafe]

Does it mean that INTPs tend to make INFJ ladies even unhappier?

I don't know. It seems likely. However I would imagine the pairing (can you tell my kids read fanfic?) is statistically rare enough that there might not be a huge amount of data.

 

[LUBUS]

Rambling:

Also, I wonder about that study you mention. What type were the unhappy INFJs with, and what types were the poor-performing INTPs with. The INTP-ISFJ thing happens often, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's them complaining, but I'm sure the INTP isn't exactly rico suave anyway. Also, the INTP-INFJ pairing seems like the happiest for INTPs (which is what I was looking at), not necessarily the most common. But then again, if the INFJ isn't that damn happy, then what's the point.

You're an INTP as well?

You think the INFJ would be better off paired with an INTJ?

 

[LUBUS]

I don't know. It seems likely. However I would imagine the pairing (can you tell my kids read fanfic?) is statistically rare enough that there might not be a huge amount of data.

I wonder if most INFJs see the INTPs as some kind of awkward Objectivist types?...

 

[baccheion]

You're an INTP as well?

You think the INFJ would be better off paired with an INTJ?

Yea, I'm an INTP. I don't know which pair would generally work better, but there is something about the INTP-INFJ pairing that always catches my attention.

 

[cafe]

Rambling:

Really (more about the INFJ being the least satisfied, I hear about the INTP thing all the time)? The only reason I wonder is because I'm usually hearing from INTPs about how happy they are in their relationship with INFJs, and how long the relationships last, versus what happens with other types. Maybe they are happy while the INFJ isn't so much, but that didn't seem like the case. I should find this out. I keep seeking out INFJs and it's been hit or miss. I've even gone as far as scraping OkCupid (dating site) to see which types I match best with on average, and the number one spot is pretty much a tie between INFJ and ENFP and after them there is a huge gap and then the rest of the types. I'm glad NFs are overrepresented in the female population on OkCupid, because this ups my odds of finding one I'm compatible with. The data did kinda throw me, I guess, because while there tends to be an instant connection between myself and ENFP women, it usually turns sour at some point (they start projecting and showing just how much attention/support they need to be happy). I guess what I'm saying is that I hope the same doesn't happen with INFJs.

Actually, I have a sister that's INFJ, so I have some sort of lifelong experience with them that should help. She always prefered it when I was in kind of a weaker position (victimized, etc), and I'm not sure I like that, but otherwise everything was ok. This is a big deal given the fact that I asked her to register on OkCupid and answer the questions so I could run my script, and our match % and friend % ended up in the 60's (not good). So if things were this decent with someone having such a low match, then I'm hopeful for what will happen when the match % goes up into the 80's and 90's. Then again, maybe my sister has a lot of annoyances/problems with me that she's just bottles up. She does that kinda stuff. I would ask an INFJ-INTP couple to register on the site to see their match and how well it relates to their experience, but I'm too afraid it will ruin their relationship.

I heard of another study where NFs are usually the most satisfied with other NFs, followed by NTs, and SPs are usually the happiest with NTs (even though NTs don't like the SPs as much), but that wasn't very useful because it didn't break it down on a type-to-type basis.

Also, I wonder about that study you mention. What type were the unhappy INFJs with, and what types were the poor-performing INTPs with. The INTP-ISFJ thing happens often, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's them complaining, but I'm sure the INTP isn't exactly rico suave anyway. Also, the INTP-INFJ pairing seems like the happiest for INTPs (which is what I was looking at), not necessarily the most common. But then again, if the INFJ isn't that damn happy, then what's the point.



I don't remember all the details of what I did. Maybe I was on another forum, and the most common (and most dissatisfying) relationship was between an INTP and an ISFJ, usually with the ISFJ having approached the INTP. Next was INTP and ENFP, and that relationship was also hit or miss, with INTPs (or maybe both parties) universally agreeing that it's a great matchup for friendship, but almost always disastrous when taken to the next level.

There is usually all kinds of hinky, subconscious stuff going on with sibs, so who knows?

I'll see if my husband is up to looking at the okaycupid thing this weekend if I can remember. We've been married twenty-one years and have a lot of the bugs worked out, so I think that won't cause us to get divorced.

For me, things were hard when the kids were little. But we had four kids in five and a half years and we were also poor (literally in poverty) and in our twenties, so that is an extreme circumstance.

Communication can be a big thing. We both try to avoid conflict, so that left stuff festering (at least on my side) for awhile. Eventually I figured out he wasn't being obtuse, he just really didn't know what I was unhappy about. Once I figured out how to be calm but very blunt, things got better.

It also took us awhile to learn how to make decisions well together. He internally goes ape-shit if he feels like someone is trying to control him. I go ape-shit if there is not some kind of plan in place. I don't have to make the plan, we don't have to stick to the plan perfectly, I just need to know there is a plan and I like to know what it is. Hate surprises. He has a very controlling mother, so he took my need for a plan to be me trying to control him and would slam on the breaks and/or sabotage whatever plans I tried to make. Once I learned about MBTI, I got a better handle on what was going on and was able to navigate things better and we do pretty well now. Last time I really tripped it was when I bought a house and expected him to help me make it habitable. But we got through that.

Some things took some getting used to. He does not get jealous. He will not argue with me. He does not want to be involved with the handling of the money. He mostly doesn't care what I do as long as it does not inconvenience him. He doesn't care if the house is trashed as long as there is a path to the important stuff (bed, bathroom, fridge, computer). He likes good food, but could live happily on frozen pizza. He will sit in the dark for months before bothering to change a light bulb. He does not have any interest in outdoorsy stuff.

He's gone camping with me once and that was because I was going with a church group and he was worried the church people would hurt my feelings. He never went when I took the kids by myself because he didn't perceive that as being threatening to me. He went fishing with me once and I never took him again because I had to bait his hook and the kids' hooks and barely got to fish myself.

IOW, anyone expecting a lot of stereotypical man stuff (in our part of the US) might not have their expectations met. Not a huge deal for me, but it might be for someone with more conventional expectations.

 

[cafe]

I wonder if most INFJs see the INTPs as some kind of awkward Objectivist types?...

More like adorkable.

 

[LUBUS]

More like adorkable.

Adorkable??...Is there an over-the-counter test for that?

 

[LUBUS]

It also took us awhile to learn how to make decisions well together. He internally goes ape-shit if he feels like someone is trying to control him. I go ape-shit if there is not some kind of plan in place. I don't have to make the plan, we don't have to stick to the plan perfectly, I just need to know there is a plan and I like to know what it is. Hate surprises. He has a very controlling mother, so he took my need for a plan to be me trying to control him and would slam on the breaks and/or sabotage whatever plans I tried to make. Once I learned about MBTI, I got a better handle on what was going on and was able to navigate things better and we do pretty well now. Last time I really tripped it was when I bought a house and expected him to help me make it habitable. But we got through that.

Some things took some getting used to. He does not get jealous. He will not argue with me. He does not want to be involved with the handling of the money. He mostly doesn't care what I do as long as it does not inconvenience him. He doesn't care if the house is trashed as long as there is a path to the important stuff (bed, bathroom, fridge, computer). He likes good food, but could live happily on frozen pizza. He will sit in the dark for months before bothering to change a light bulb. He does not have any interest in outdoorsy stuff.

He's gone camping with me once and that was because I was going with a church group and he was worried the church people would hurt my feelings. He never went when I took the kids by myself because he didn't perceive that as being threatening to me. He went fishing with me once and I never took him again because I had to bait his hook and the kids' hooks and barely got to fish myself.

IOW, anyone expecting a lot of stereotypical man stuff (in our part of the US) might not have their expectations met. Not a huge deal for me, but it might be for someone with more conventional expectations.

Your husband sounds a lot like me ... and I live in the midst of a very conventional community...

 

[skylights]

Slightly tangential but interesting - my dad is INTP and mom ESFJ and their partnership is not unlike cafe and her husband's in many ways. She too is the day-to-day planner, practical money handler (not stocks), and primary child-caretaker. She too is the dominant communicator, and is the one to keep up with dad's family, though he's sociable with his own music buddies. He does practical repair and maintenance and she does the scheduling, appointment-booking, and so on. My dad has fairly strong S(i) and they are both sp-first so I think that adds to their connection.

 

[LUBUS]

Slightly tangential but interesting - my dad is INTP and mom ESFJ and their partnership is not unlike cafe and her husband's in many ways. She too is the day-to-day planner, practical money handler (not stocks), and primary child-caretaker. She too is the dominant communicator, and is the one to keep up with dad's family, though he's sociable with his own music buddies. He does practical repair and maintenance and she does the scheduling, appointment-booking, and so on. My dad has fairly strong S(i) and they are both sp-first so I think that adds to their connection.

Question: what attracts such women to such INTP males in the first place?

 

[baccheion]

There is usually all kinds of hinky, subconscious stuff going on with sibs, so who knows?

I'll see if my husband is up to looking at the okaycupid thing this weekend if I can remember. We've been married twenty-one years and have a lot of the bugs worked out, so I think that won't cause us to get divorced.

For me, things were hard when the kids were little. But we had four kids in five and a half years and we were also poor (literally in poverty) and in our twenties, so that is an extreme circumstance.

Communication can be a big thing. We both try to avoid conflict, so that left stuff festering (at least on my side) for awhile. Eventually I figured out he wasn't being obtuse, he just really didn't know what I was unhappy about. Once I figured out how to be calm but very blunt, things got better.

It also took us awhile to learn how to make decisions well together. He internally goes ape-shit if he feels like someone is trying to control him. I go ape-shit if there is not some kind of plan in place. I don't have to make the plan, we don't have to stick to the plan perfectly, I just need to know there is a plan and I like to know what it is. Hate surprises. He has a very controlling mother, so he took my need for a plan to be me trying to control him and would slam on the breaks and/or sabotage whatever plans I tried to make. Once I learned about MBTI, I got a better handle on what was going on and was able to navigate things better and we do pretty well now. Last time I really tripped it was when I bought a house and expected him to help me make it habitable. But we got through that.

Some things took some getting used to. He does not get jealous. He will not argue with me. He does not want to be involved with the handling of the money. He mostly doesn't care what I do as long as it does not inconvenience him. He doesn't care if the house is trashed as long as there is a path to the important stuff (bed, bathroom, fridge, computer). He likes good food, but could live happily on frozen pizza. He will sit in the dark for months before bothering to change a light bulb. He does not have any interest in outdoorsy stuff.

He's gone camping with me once and that was because I was going with a church group and he was worried the church people would hurt my feelings. He never went when I took the kids by myself because he didn't perceive that as being threatening to me. He went fishing with me once and I never took him again because I had to bait his hook and the kids' hooks and barely got to fish myself.

IOW, anyone expecting a lot of stereotypical man stuff (in our part of the US) might not have their expectations met. Not a huge deal for me, but it might be for someone with more conventional expectations.

This is all good. I'm curious about the part about getting jealous. I've heard this as something to get used to from a lot of INFJs, and I see the question on OkCupid about jealousy often answered as it being a healthy thing in relationships, but I pride myself on not getting jealous. What is it about him not getting jealous that bothers you?

As for the other stuff, I'm usually like that, but unlike the jealousy thing, I don't really like those aspects of my personality. However, it has usually proven too difficult (or impossible) to change, or it has been the case that changing would be severely limiting to the strengths of my personality or my own personal happiness. Like, I hate not being handy, organized, etc, but when I try to do that it cramps who I am and my style. Organization and my style of free-form thinking doesn't go hand in hand, and I'll clearly need help with that from whoever I end up with. However, I'd rather be disorganized, messy, etc, than be with someone that provides these things, but is the controlling/rigid/annoying/imposing type of person that can be typical of judgers. Having to have everything planned out ahead of time would drive me nuts.

 

[cafe]

This is all good. I'm curious about the part about getting jealous. I've heard this as something to get used to from a lot of INFJs, and I see it listed a lot on OkCupid as being healthy in a relationship (getting jealous), but I pride myself on not getting jealous. What is it about him not getting jealous that bothers you?

It can feel like indifference. In the media we're swamped a lot of weird gender stereotypes one of them being that males are territorial. I asked my husband about it once and he said I'd never given him a reason to feel jealous and I realized it wasn't indifference, it was trust and a respect for autonomy. Or that's how I interpreted it. Now that I'm a bit older and I've seen what it looks like to have a jealous husband, I'm not complaining. The other women can keep the jealous men and their constant annoying phone calls, etc.

 

[Showbread]

Question: what attracts such women to such INTP males in the first place?

This is the question of my life. I've had really strong feelings for two INTPs. I never actually wanted to pursue a relationship with either of them because I felt that we were too different and would end up hurting each other. I think something about the deep thinking, intelligence and melancholy was/is just very appealing to me. I also find their sense of humor hilarious.

 

[spirilis]

Well I'm an INTP married to an ENFJ (thought she was ISFJ for the longest time, but didn't feel like involving MBTI between us... then got too curious recently and had her take the humanmetrics test; I think it's a better type-fit since it explains some attributes I couldn't quite reconcile with the ISFJ description).

Um runon sentence aside ... I suspect she might be an sx-last type, with me possibly sx-2nd or last (leaning towards sp/sx these days I think), so she's not the super gregarious type of extrovert, probably why I mistook her for introvert. She's taken the real MBTI a long time ago (like, in middle school) and got ENTJ or something back then so I suspect ENxJ is more solid a preference in her than I thought.

Definitely a ton more social than me, but since we have 2 small kids (both <3yrs old) we don't get to go out and do much, however she generally involves me in social stuff since it often involves my family or mutual friends, but she is starting to develop a couple social circles outside of those that I'm not involved in. She has a very well-honed sense of tact and social intelligence. She takes care of the kids, cooks like a freaking star, always has a pulse on what holidays or birthdays are coming up & what she'd like to get these folks, is somewhat idealistic about things (like eating right & where our food comes from), somewhat fixated and idealistic about the psychological health of her friends and family and gossips about the issues with me, always dresses nice, always has an interest in being physically fit, and definitely has the "art appreciation" bug although that often involves lots of things including fine & unique architecture, gardens, quality craftsmanship in addition to traditional "art" and theater. The one piece of that we do bond on is appreciating architecture and home-built homes (we're into Natural Building type of stuff right now).

I'm not generally emo to her but I am not afraid to talk about deeper things and feelings, and she really seems to enjoy it when I do. Showing anxiety or anger does affect her notably (making her anxious), doubly so if it's directed at her (very rare), that is definitely a weak spot. Sometimes gets wrapped around the axle with decisions, even those involving trivial amounts of risk, if they pertain to the kids or home or family. I think I help round out her edges by having a greater degree of certainty about some things, especially those that are technical or just "complicated" in nature so I can put her mind at ease and explain why we should do things X way because it just makes the most sense because A,B,C, connected with D, E, F and blahblahblah I could pick the problem apart and show her all the angles in excruciatingly nerdy detail until she just shuts up & trusts my confident sound logic is right. Or something like that.

She has stated that she knew we were compatible in part because of how laid-back I am, able to reassure and work through things in my head.

Oh yeah, and she doesn't particularly enjoy driving (she can, including stick shift, it's just not a particularly comforting activity for her). She's always a lot more comfortable and happy when I'm in the driver's seat, definite "manly points" for me.

She practically melts every time I buy her flowers, too

So yeah, it works pretty well with the right people. I think that just about sums up all relationships though.

 

[cafe]

[MENTION=585]spirilis[/MENTION] is right about the calm-keeping abilities, IME. Nobody can keep my head on straight like my INTP. I'm kind of twitchy by nature and he is a solid, soothing presence. Best labor coach anyone could ever ask for, IMO.

 

[skylights]

Question: what attracts such women to such INTP males in the first place?

I have never spoken about that with them explicitly, but I know they met at the grocery store where they both worked in high school, and got to know one another through going out in groups with friends. They dated into their mid-20s and married, my mom worked 3 jobs to put my dad through med school, and then she took some time off work to have kids while he was in private practice. I think they have similar senses of humor, despite their differences. They both share a strong work ethic, value of knowledge/education, and desire to help humanity through their careers. Both are very self-sufficient and independent people. My dad contributes analytic thinking, cool rationale, persistence, bluntness, and professionalism to the relationship. My mom contributes organizational skill, people-handling, warmth, tact, deep empathy, and pragmatism to the relationship. Much of their interaction that I have witnessed revolves around a shared sense of dealing with the world together, and trying to make it better, and finding the humor in things. I think there is enough overlap to make them have similar values and goals, and enough difference to make them good complements to one another.

I think that two people tend to be attracted in general when something in each of them "speaks to" something in the other. That there is something they sense that is fulfilling about the other.

 

[Showbread]

[MENTION=585]spirilis[/MENTION] is right about the calm-keeping abilities, IME. Nobody can keep my head on straight like my INTP. I'm kind of twitchy by nature and he is a solid, soothing presence. Best labor coach anyone could ever ask for, IMO.

My INTP friend can make me stop freaking out better than anyone else I know. He has a way of making me realize how irrational I am being, without doing it condescendingly.

 

[skylights]

My INTP friend can make me stop freaking out better than anyone else I know. He has a way of making me realize how irrational I am being, without doing it condescendingly.

Yes, I like Ti for this, especially when used with a tiny touch of tact. The Te tendency is to tell an error. The Ti tendency is to show it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Do you often deal with the thought that your partner may be too «lazy» or «uncaring» to deal with both routine and social affairs?

My INTP dad and ENFJ mom have been married for almost 50 years. I think the uncaring thing is, by far and wide, the biggest problem. Even when I was little I felt like my dad cared about me without needing him to directly express it, but for some reason that's something she doesn't seem to pick up on herself. She's always needed more positive attention than it would ever occur to him to give anyone (which she has harped endlessly about- I don't know how he puts up with it).

My mom is definitely not the one who imposes order on the world. Neither of them really impose much order on the world, but the stuff that HAS to get done (e.g. keeping the checking acct balanced, paying bills) is all done by my dad. They're pretty old though, and this might have something to do with gender roles. My mom managed to balance her own checkbook and so forth until they were married in their 30s, so it's not like she's not capable of it- she doesn't find it rewarding, so my dad does it.

I think to friends who aren't privy to the fights that happen at home, they actually come across as being almost perfect for each other. He might be the funniest person I've ever met- I personally can't stay angry at him because of that. My mom can, but the rest of the time he can make her laugh really super hard- while most people think he's funny, he can make my mom laugh so hard she can't breathe with just a couple well placed words. And I think it makes him happy just to have people that laugh so hard at the one-liners he drops.

I'm not really sure what my mom gets out of it- but I know what I (INFJ female) appreciate most about my dad is that he never gets upset. As some others said above, that's invaluable to me and helps me stay level-headed myself. Also, NTP humor (so long as that NTP doesn't have a chip on their shoulder, making "jokes" that actually purge contempt) can stop me from drowning in my own gravitas.