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Thread: INTP + ENFJ = ?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Hypatia's Avatar
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    Don't understand this dual pairing mythology yet. So far as I see it, it can only work during the more mature years when and if ENFJ and INTP are theoretically supposed to care about their inferior functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LUBUS View Post
    I agree. But that may still not be enough...too much criticism turn on the tears...
    Yeah. I think the biggest mistake I see from the INTP side is not being affirming enough. Though, I don't think the problem is really so much criticism itself as it it a lot of criticism and barely any praise. Consistently saying when something is wrong but not often saying when things are right. That can be very hard on an F.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah. I think the biggest mistake I see from the INTP side is not being affirming enough. Though, I don't think the problem is really so much criticism itself as it it a lot of criticism and barely any praise. Consistently saying when something is wrong but not often saying when things are right. That can be very hard on an F.
    Funny, I'm often accused of criticizing, but I doubt I do that much in a relationship. I'd just plain not care, as is the case for most things. The only way this would happen is if the other person asked for feedback, and rather than BS'ing, I answer the question honestly. Nothing particularly negative would be said, but the fair neutral feedback I give tends to get interpreted as negativity/criticism. I think the more accurate accusation/problem is a lack of sufficient positive supportive communication (sweet nothings, empty words, saying I love you even when you don't feel the urge to say it at that moment, etc). Any sort of affirmation or encouragement, etc would be non-verbal, and it's about whether the partner is receptive to that. Outside of a relationship, I don't care about being negative/blunt or about hurting someone's feelings, but then again I don't talk much and I don't go around volunteering my opinion. In my life, if negativity is coming at you from me, then you asked for it.

    Oh, and people have this habit of talking my silence, or my plain facial expression, or me minding my own business as me being negative/critical, which is annoying. This borders on projection, and they almost always end up BS'ing, complaining, and annoying the piss out of me about some stupid thing. So, you mean to tell me that because I'm sitting there quietly minding my own business that I'm criticizing you, etc? Idiot. Get the hell away from me. And I say this while knowing that even though what they are saying is stupid/illogical that this is how they'll always react, and even if they seem to come around, they'll still be thinking the same things, so I cut off all ties with them in my mind, and begin the process of removing them from my life, and of protecting myself from them, because these are the people that add the most stress and misery to my life.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapLawyer View Post
    Nothing particularly negative would be said, but the fair neutral feedback I give tends to get interpreted as negativity/criticism. I think the more accurate accusation/problem is a lack of sufficient positive supportive communication (sweet nothings, empty words, saying I love you even when you don't feel the urge to say it at that moment, etc).
    Cap, that comment was based on observing my mother and father. My father is an INTP 5w6 and by his own admission quite critical. I imagine that he would agree with the way you are framing this - that he is just noting objective truths - but through my mother's or my eyes, it is quite a lot of complaining/criticizing and very little appreciation. He says things when he feels like they need to be said, which generally correlates with when there is a problem that needs addressing. Consequently, he rarely says anything when things are running smoothly. If our home were NASA or a laboratory, then that would be fine. But it's a respite and a haven, and my mother and I desire it to be positive and supportive. There isn't a problem with dad pointing out what's wrong, but there is a problem with him not communicating appreciation or encouragement. It's the ratio that is an issue for us. Like the time I spent two hours cleaning the whole kitchen as a surprise for my parents and dad pointed out the single dirty fork I had just finished my own food with.

    What is interesting to me is that my ISTP brother does not seem to share this problem. It may be because he is a 9, and more passive overall. But even he gets to the point of frustration with dad's criticism.

    Oh, and people have this habit of talking my silence, or my plain facial expression, or me minding my own business as me being negative/critical, which is annoying.
    Maybe you should ask them why they think this? It seems like an odd occurrence.

  5. #55
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If our home were NASA or a laboratory, then that would be fine. But it's a respite and a haven, and my mother and I desire it to be positive and supportive. There isn't a problem with dad pointing out what's wrong, but there is a problem with him not communicating appreciation or encouragement. It's the ratio that is an issue for us. Like the time I spent two hours cleaning the whole kitchen as a surprise for my parents and dad pointed out the single dirty fork I had just finished my own food with.
    Wow. I can't believe your mother has allowed him to live this long. That kind of thing is just asking to be stabbed in the throat with a dirty fork, IMO.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #56
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    NFJs seem to have the best mental/emotional chemistry with NTPs, which is a damn fine foundation for a relationship, IMO. I date an ENFJ right now, and we get along quite swimmingly, thanks, in part, to the fact that her ambition has her so preoccupied with ten million different things, that I get plenty of time to myself. Still, there's a few tricks I had to learn to get to this point-- we had a somewhat rocky, volatile start. Namely, that you can never over-water an ENFJ with Fe, and that discovering the stereotypical distinction between "I'm fine" and "I'm fine" is actually paramount.

    As far as attraction goes, it's the craziest thing, and I can't really explain it-- but good luck finding an ENFJ with any free time to log in and post anything on a web forum that isn't related to supporting people close to them. It's like I can do nothing, and still turn her on. It's like a no effort situation when it comes to interpersonal communication. The only saboteur tends to be foul moods, often brought on by an absence of Fe expression...which I suppose could be where the 'effort' part of the relationship kicks in.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Wow. I can't believe your mother has allowed him to live this long. That kind of thing is just asking to be stabbed in the throat with a dirty fork, IMO.
    Exactly!

    To be fair, he pointed it out because he didn't understand what was on it. I happened to feel like eating a roasted marshmallow, so there was some white shiny residue with blacks char flecks left on the fork.

    And he did thank me, after I told him off. He said he appreciated it and just was curious about the fork. My suspicion is that he was being INxP-oblivious and may not have realized that the kitchen was hyper-clean until I pointed it out.

    So you can see how he didn't mean harm, but the exchange went wrong.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Exactly!

    To be fair, he pointed it out because he didn't understand what was on it. I happened to feel like eating a roasted marshmallow, so there was some white shiny residue with blacks char flecks left on the fork.

    And he did thank me, after I told him off. He said he appreciated it and just was curious about the fork. My suspicion is that he was being INxP-oblivious and may not have realized that the kitchen was hyper-clean until I pointed it out.

    So you can see how he didn't mean harm, but the exchange went wrong.
    Yep. It can happen and they don't mean it, but it still doesn't feel good.

    If it looks like Don isn't going to notice something, I point it out for him and ask directly for a pat on the head. He generally humors me and disaster is averted.

    I made a deal with myself after about ten years of marriage that I can't get mad at him for not doing what I want him to if I haven't told him (in the clearest of terms) what it is that I want. It felt really weird at first because my family of origin is very much about anticipating one another's needs and addressing them before they have the chance to ask, but it was about the smartest inner policy I ever made.

    For him, a lot of things are just invisible. And he doesn't care whether or not the house is clean, etc so it's not a big thing. So if I work hard at something that benefits him in some way, then I blatantly fish for praise. It should not work because I have solicited it out of him, but for some reason, it does work and he's a good sport and we're fine. If he was not a good sport about it, I would probably have to kill him in his sleep.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I made a deal with myself after about ten years of marriage that I can't get mad at him for not doing what I want him to if I haven't told him (in the clearest of terms) what it is that I want. It felt really weird at first because my family of origin is very much about anticipating one another's needs and addressing them before they have the chance to ask, but it was about the smartest inner policy I ever made.

    For him, a lot of things are just invisible. And he doesn't care whether or not the house is clean, etc so it's not a big thing. So if I work hard at something that benefits him in some way, then I blatantly fish for praise. It should not work because I have solicited it out of him, but for some reason, it does work and he's a good sport and we're fine. If he was not a good sport about it, I would probably have to kill him in his sleep.
    I think that's awesome. I completely understand the anticipate-and-address mindset and impulse, as well as the disappointment that follows. I think it's wonderful that you've been able to adapt like that. Sometimes it's so pleasing to learn what works in a couple that doesn't work anywhere else.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Cap, that comment was based on observing my mother and father. My father is an INTP 5w6 and by his own admission quite critical. I imagine that he would agree with the way you are framing this - that he is just noting objective truths - but through my mother's or my eyes, it is quite a lot of complaining/criticizing and very little appreciation. He says things when he feels like they need to be said, which generally correlates with when there is a problem that needs addressing. Consequently, he rarely says anything when things are running smoothly. If our home were NASA or a laboratory, then that would be fine. But it's a respite and a haven, and my mother and I desire it to be positive and supportive. There isn't a problem with dad pointing out what's wrong, but there is a problem with him not communicating appreciation or encouragement. It's the ratio that is an issue for us. Like the time I spent two hours cleaning the whole kitchen as a surprise for my parents and dad pointed out the single dirty fork I had just finished my own food with.

    What is interesting to me is that my ISTP brother does not seem to share this problem. It may be because he is a 9, and more passive overall. But even he gets to the point of frustration with dad's criticism.



    Maybe you should ask them why they think this? It seems like an odd occurrence.
    Maybe you are using one example to defeat the many. Not saying there isn't a lack of positive support, but I don't think what you've described is common behavior. I don't go out of my way to point out criticisms like that, that sounds more like xxTJ territory. I don't just randomly point out "objective truths," someone would've needed to ask. Also, are you an extrovert? ExFx would obviously be more "needy" in the attention department than an introvert, though introverts complain as well. It all boils down to whether you can legitimately appreciate what the INTP considers showing affection (actions, usually, maybe touch, not so much words). The INTP may also be particularly proud of their method of showing affection, considering it more meaningful, and therefore even if they could change to something more typically demanded (words), they'd probably not choose to. They have a big problem with empty compliments. If that cannot be reconciled, then you'll have problems.

    Also, I've seen those who meet the needs of those who want more words and more positive support, and it's almost like they are killing themselves doing it, and it seems to carve out a big chunk of their time, attention, and life, and it's strange that this is the expected norm. I don't think I'd ever be able to do that, or that I'd ever be comfortable doing that, even if I wanted to. It doesn't help that I get annoyed when people shower me with this BS. It means nothing to me. Do something to show that you care. That's clearly harder anyway. Words can so frequently and so easily mean nothing, but then again women fall for this BS all the time (BS when it comes from the wrong people). It's just strange to me. I don't know, maybe that's why the INTP has such little luck with women, and maybe that's why snake oil and other types who shower women with compliments, etc, pick them up left and right. On some level, I find it repulsive, and would rather not end up with women that are this gullible, or this needy, or this unable to appreciate what I'd be willing to slave over, but maybe I don't have a choice.

    As for noticing the little things, I don't know. On the one hand the person worked hard on it and wants to be acknowledged (so hopefully it was worth doing, rather than something the other party doesn't care about), but on the other hand, I'd be annoyed if someone were to point out every single thing I did, or try to compliment me on it. Maybe that position has wired out such behavior from me.

    I guess it boils down to the fact that you want to be showered with compliments and I love yous, whether you admit to it or not, and it's then about who would be able to provide such an environment, because I doubt that would be an INTP. Maybe some INTPs can live in an environment where their natural inclinations aren't appreciated, but if I were personally complained to like this, then I would think the relationship should end. Becoming more "supportive" than I already am seems impossible, and I'd probably talk myself out of it at some point, so I wouldn't bother. That is, I think this is one thing about myself (talking about me personally) that I wouldn't want to change, even though it's such a common complaint. I'd start looking for someone that cares about other things. And with this all, I'm not saying that words don't matter, or that compliments don't matter, or that I don't give compliments/support at all, I'm saying that if what's needed exceeds my ability to give, and it's that big a deal, then I'd bow out.

    What I also notice is that in relationships where this is a problem, the other partner usually ends up cheating, or they end up with the victim mentality, projecting all manner of negative shit and hatred onto the other person. I don't think that's a workable environment. But what I've also noticed is that not all women are like this.

    Some INTP+ENFJ relationships work, but did I mention that I think it's a bad idea? I don't think it's the best situation to get caught up in. But more accurate would be a relationship in which you are incompatible, or in which your desired methods of showing affection, support, are not aligned is not a good idea. What about the INTP? Does the INTP just not care, or are they happy? Showering me with compliments would annoy me, not backing up your words (rarely do I need verbal support) with actions would annoy me, doing things that you try to force me to appreciate when I actually don't care about them would bother me. I don't know. Maybe it's all about the women in these situations, because they are so convinced that they are delivering what the other party wants and it's their needs that aren't being met, but I think it goes the other way as well. Maybe it gets confusing or unclear because I don't go around complaining or being bothered by every single little thing, or maybe it's because I'm easy to please and low maintenance, or maybe it's because I'm a thinker, I don't know, but maybe the INTP is happy inspite of you, not because of what you are doing. This thing goes both ways.

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