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[INFJ] infj paradox

jw52

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Nov 10, 2013
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"If a friend seems intent on self-destruction and totally refuses help, the INFJ cannot in good conscience continue to sit by and do nothing while a friend goes down in flames. The relationship must be severed.

In short, they care too much.

And so they don't let people in readily at all."
(Quote from another thread.)

Do you see the paradox? What on earth does 'care' mean here? If you have closed the door or make sure you keep your sensitive head in the sand, what good do all the feelings in the world do? Isnt this just blatant self protection?
 

cafe

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Yeah, it's blatant self protection. That's why I wouldn't phrase it as having to do with good conscience. You can't save people from themselves. You can try to help, but if it's obvious your efforts are ineffective, going down with the ship is pretty stupid and doesn't help anybody. I don't think it's about caring too much, but about having overactive empathy, which is not the same thing, IMO. And I don't think there is anything wrong with self-preservation or self-defense in most circumstances.
 

CatBalou

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We need to feel like we're helping. If we try to help and the friend can't/won't accept that help, it makes us feel useless and inept. So yes, it's a bad situation for our egos and shows the limits on us being able to "care too much". Real caring too much is done by ISFJs IME.

If the friend yo-yos up and down, we get enough of a stroke to our ego to carry on "caring"...
 

Ene

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What if the friend is a fellow INFJ and that friend has shut you out, won't answer the phone, won't answer a text, won't even talk to anyone? What if he has retreated to the hills and hollers and nobody can reach him? I have a friend like that and I don't want to give up on him but I have no idea how to reach him.
 
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ndovjtjcaqidthi

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What if the friend is a fellow INFJ and that friend has shut you out, won't answer the phone, won't answer a text, won't even talk to anyone? What if he has retreated to the hills and hollers and nobody can reach him? I have a friend like that and I don't want to give up on him but I have no idea how to reach him.

Let him do his own thing.
 

Ene

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[MENTION=15318]Saudade[/MENTION] also good advice. A little easier said than done, but good advice the same.
 

idkman24

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Two things:
1) Are you sure you are an INFJ, [MENTION=15318]Saudade[/MENTION]? I'm getting some strong T vibes from you
2) My INTJ best friend of 16 years has been, for quite some time now, jobless, overweight, does nothing all day, any money he gets goes to weed and alcohol. By "some time," I mean ~4 years now. The ONLY thing he cares about is his ISFJ girlfriend who has emotional and self-esteem issues and enables him. She also pays for him on the rare occasion they go out for lunch/dinner.

I've tried to help him. I spent a large chunk of my summer trying to "coach" him. But I noticed it was dragging along slowly. VERY slowly. Then, I came to the realization that it was ME who wanted to help HIM, not HIM wanting help from ME. So I stopped. We're still friends, we still hang out, but ever so often, I just get really angry about the entire situation. He's my best friend, and comparatively to me, he's nothing. I don't know why he couldn't, more or less, "keep up."

It's a relationship that I KNOW I should give up on, but I can't. I don't know why. I feel like it'd be a divorce. Just too many shared memories, too many "firsts," and we know too much about each other. But, for my own sanity and health, I KNOW I have to give up on it. Of course, on paper we'll still be "friends," but I have other best friends.....one an INTJ going to Johns Hopkins University. THAT friend, I'm SO proud of. This INTJ, however, I need to let go of so I can grow. He keeps me from moving on with personal growth.

So, yeah, I think INFJs are ultimately like that, but some relationships are harder to move on from than others.

Just my .02.
 
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ndovjtjcaqidthi

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Two things:
1) Are you sure you are an INFJ, [MENTION=15318]Saudade[/MENTION]? I'm getting some strong T vibes from you

So you think I'm an INTJ? I've typed myself as one before, but I don't think it fits as well as INFJ does. If you could give me more info than just a vibe I'd love to hear it.
 

idkman24

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So you think I'm an INTJ? I've typed myself as one before, but I don't think it fits as well as INFJ does. If you could give me more info than just a vibe I'd love to hear it.

It's honestly just a vibe, really. I couldn't really put my finger on anything in particular.

Perhaps it's due to my "dear....." post? Perhaps an Fe user would have seen the response and thought "eh, I don't really want to read that, but I may offend the guy if I respond, so I'll just let it go," OR they would respond with either advice, or even "bro, take a breather, you're making a big deal out of nothing. Sounds like those friends suck anyways."

But, then again, I just read that you're 22 years old. I am only 23 and I, too, go(went?) through the same struggle as you. I've got the INJ down, but only recently have I recognized that what I always thought was my using Te was really Fe (and somewhere there is a Jung video of him saying that Te and Fe can be indistinguishable at a young age). Now it just makes more sense. I also have started using the Ti eye thing. So there's a new quirk I've developed.
 

autumnandtherain

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We need to feel like we're helping. If we try to help and the friend can't/won't accept that help, it makes us feel useless and inept. So yes, it's a bad situation for our egos and shows the limits on us being able to "care too much". Real caring too much is done by ISFJs IME.

If the friend yo-yos up and down, we get enough of a stroke to our ego to carry on "caring"...

I'm not sure I agree about the ego thing, but I definitely agree with the first part. If I can see that there's no way I can help them, I just let them know I care about them, how to reach me if needed, and let them be. It puts me through too much emotionally and mentally to try to help someone who refuses to be helped.
 
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ndovjtjcaqidthi

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It's honestly just a vibe, really. I couldn't really put my finger on anything in particular.

Perhaps it's due to my "dear....." post? Perhaps an Fe user would have seen the response and thought "eh, I don't really want to read that, but I may offend the guy if I respond, so I'll just let it go," OR they would respond with either advice, or even "bro, take a breather, you're making a big deal out of nothing. Sounds like those friends suck anyways."

But, then again, I just read that you're 22 years old. I am only 23 and I, too, go(went?) through the same struggle as you. I've got the INJ down, but only recently have I recognized that what I always thought was my using Te was really Fe (and somewhere there is a Jung video of him saying that Te and Fe can be indistinguishable at a young age). Now it just makes more sense. I also have started using the Ti eye thing. So there's a new quirk I've developed.

I wouldn't put much thought into that, I was just trying to rustle your jims. I wouldn't consider myself "young", by the way. Mentally, anyway, and I'm not struggling with anything, either. I know my type.

You might want to reconsider yours, though. I see obvious Fi in you.

I was just curious why you'd think that about me.

Keep hustlin'.
 

idkman24

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I wouldn't put much thought into that, I was just trying to rustle your jims. I wouldn't consider myself "young", by the way. Mentally, anyway, and I'm not struggling with anything, either. I know my type.

You might want to reconsider yours, though. I see obvious Fi in you.

I was just curious why you'd think that about me.

Keep hustlin'.

I'm not doubting you, but every 21, 22 year old I know says that they are "mentally mature" and are "certain of their type." I usually see it otherwise, but keep my mouth shut.

Not saying the same goes for you, just giving you some food for thought.

Yeah, I come from a STRONG Fi family (mom is ISFP), but it's Fe for me. I do have my personal feelings on A LOT of things, but ultimately, I think any decision needs to be based on the feelings of the majority over me. I tell my mom quite often, "mom, I know that's what you want, but that would be the SELFISH move, not the RIGHT move."

You keep the hustlin' up yourself. :D
Cheers!
 

two cents

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Wait, how is caring about someone else but also wanting to protect oneself a paradox? Seriously, are only uncaring assholes allowed to care about their own emotional wellbeing, but giving two shits about another person obligates one to forget everything about themselves and just become a willing slave to that other person's interests?

Speaking as someone who has a strong impulse to help people (sometimes even to the extent of forgetting how that will affect me), self-protection is not even the only possible motivation for the behavior you describe. Have you considered plain frustration/boredom? If you are someone who likes to help people and you are faced with someone determined to destroy themselves, there's a) nothing you can do in the situation and b) you get to inwardly facepalm yourself pretty much continuously when dealing with that individual.

It COULD be about feeling too much and just being unable to deal with the pain of watching someone you care about self-destruct. Or it could be much less dramatic than that: if your involvement (such as you can offer) is not wanted, you shrug and go away.
 

Fidelia

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Yeah, that's more how I see it. I don't think it's so much an ego thing for me about needing to be needed, but rather that the cost consistently outweighs any return for either party. It's not accomplishing anything, but it is using up all kinds of resources.
 

meowington

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Any other INFJs here that have self-destructive tendencies themselves ?

Because that would be reason nr 1 for me to stray from a friend on that path : ie. Fear to get sucked into a vortex of negativity myself. I have only gradually learned to cope with my own inner demons through the years.
So, in that respect, I really do think the OPs right and that it is a matter of self protection, in my case. Sue me ;)
You have to be levelheaded yourself before you can be of any help to someone else.

It also depends on the severity of the friends problem. I think we're better at giving extra guidance and personal insights to fairly levelheaded people, rather than helping out people who've totally lost it. We're counselors, not nurses or magicians. I'd have to agree with [MENTION=19644]CatBalou[/MENTION] that an ISFJ could be more useful in that sort of crisis.
 

autumnandtherain

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Any other INFJs here that have self-destructive tendencies themselves ?

Because that would be reason nr 1 for me to stray from a friend on that path : ie. Fear to get sucked into a vortex of negativity myself. I have only gradually learned to cope with my own inner demons through the years.
So, in that respect, I really do think the OPs right and that it is a matter of self protection, in my case. Sue me ;)
You have to be levelheaded yourself before you can be of any help to someone else.

It also depends on the severity of the friends problem. I think we're better at giving extra guidance and personal insights to fairly levelheaded people, rather than helping out people who've totally lost it. We're counselors, not nurses or magicians. I'd have to agree with [MENTION=19644]CatBalou[/MENTION] that an ISFJ could be more useful in that sort of crisis.

Oh yes, that's definitely part of that. If I'm around people who are negative all the time then I start thinking negatively too. I don't need that in my life. I have enough trouble fighting off my insecurities and negativity as it is, I don't need someone helping me add to that.
 

ameeker

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An example of this paradox is that I had to leave my ESFP ex because he just did not understand money, and it was draining to both of us. To some it might look like I abandoned him, but to me I think I gave him a chance to be self-sufficient. Now that we're not in each other's hair all the time and now that he has a stable job and can support himself, we're all good again.
 
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