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  1. #51
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're missing the point.

    We readily admitted that ignorance might be a factor. It's about the kid who doesn't know anything about court life going: look, the emperor has NO CLOTHES!

    It is a fundamental aspect of being an ENFP champion. Truth be told, I took that criticism to heart, every time someone like yourself shot me down for doing just that. And I studied, and educated and what did I find? Not only did I let precious time go by in order to prepare my case, I *STILL* wasn't considered good enough for the adult table, just because my child-like way of presenting things wasn't appreciated. So I studied how to build up an argument.

    And now I find myself mourning that loss of spontaneity, of childlike honesty that I didn't know was precious.

    It isn't about being right or wrong. It is about bringing people together to work together on something that is a potential problem for our society/team. WE don't care about being right or wrong, generally. That we leave up to the Ni-users, trust me. We care about addressing shit everyone else is fucking tiptoeing around. Whether or not it actually needs revising is the next phase, and yes, not always in our area of expertise. Most of us however also have no problem sharing that spotlight and handing it over as we tend to readily recognise someone else's expertise, unlike some others.

    There is no need to know *everything* when your role is to rally the groups and cheer them on. That's what you bring in the expert NJ consultant for. To evaluate things and yes, to do the adult table thing.

    It also would be *NICE* to fucking well be appreciated instead of clobbered for the actual significant contribution we make to those talks though. Instead of being mocked as the court jester and clueless idiot.

    For that matter, let's see your INTJ ass speak up, rally troups, charm an audience, inspire them with genuine passion and get away with it. And you still have a small shot at it, being sx-so, I'd wager.

    Recognize it for the skill it is and the value it has. It would be greatly appreciated.
    Missed this earlier. This is beautiful. Thank you for saying that so well.

    That is one thing that has upset me more than most my whole life. This feeling of... Valuing other people for their particular skills. Making room for their values and priorities... Adjusting mine to give them that space etc and for one god damned sec I would like to be given equal consideration.

    I don't expect to change anyone's values but I'd sure as hell appreciate not being mocked for expressing mine.

    It's really beyond fucked up. I mean were the first to say hey wait!! This person here has something to say! They should be allowed to say it! We're the first to stand up for you an we don't even expect that shit returned. You don't have to lift us up just allow us to stand next to you ffs.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki
    .
    Okay, sensor

  3. #53
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    There have been some really wonderful points articulated in this thread - thank you @Lyedecker, @PeaceBaby, @Forever_Jung, and @Lady X in particular for voicing those. Touched my heart-core.

    @Zarathustra, I understand why you're saying you see him Brand as sort of a useless windbag voicing his personal feelings, but ENFPs are hyper-receptive to external patterns and internalize them through feeling, and as such we have a tendency to become repositories for a "voice of the people". What Brand is saying is not important because he is fired up about it, but because he has the natural power to present widespread sentiment in a way that is understandable and relatable. He did say from the get-go that he was not attempting to do anything but be a voice apart from the status quo institution, and a potent voice that rocks the boat is a rare and valuable force - perhaps not in the Berkeley bubble but in the world at large, especially in the deepest strongholds of vicious cycles of war and poverty and lack of education. It can also certainly be misused. But in this case, as others have stated, Brand was really unkindly treated by this interviewer. Brand shouldn't have discussed what he didn't know, but the interviewer insisted on continuously redirecting the topic to places Brand admitted he couldn't go. I am also not saying I agree with all his points, but I am impressed by his verbal charisma despite the obvious contempt of his conversational partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    At worst, you start detracting from the conversation by bringing up worthless topics that are already known, and have already been incorporated into the analysis, but you say them as if they have not already been (and rather loudly).
    Inaccurate... ENFPs who speak up tend do so because they are raising points that are not already realized. We're dominant Ns, too, and we don't deal in what is, but what could be. You're not going to find ENFPs gabbing on about the obvious because nothing about it is inherently interesting to us.

    Perhaps it is already known by a select few in the crowd, but their asses haven't really done much about it, have they, if the majority isn't aware or shifting yet... ENFPs natively understand that this sort of communication creates tangible change on a quiet, cloudy level. That Brand is talking about these issues is a change in and of itself. The eponymous verbal fireworks are important because they are effective. It's the rewiring of people's neurons to become open to new information, the activation of people's compassion to become open to new values. You may mock, but as you do, this video is making its rounds in social media. It's priming people to become more open to new points of view and to act in different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith
    We care about addressing shit everyone else is fucking tiptoeing around.
    Yes... it's part of the sacrifice the ENFP personality includes, that of childlike petulance and willingness to just blurt out what's wrong and why so many people feel like it's wrong, even though the powers that be look down their noses at us. We take that hit - as do our ESFP brethren - because it's worth it to us to have the freedom of voicing what we see, which is not really personal or independent information, but is in large part a reflection of trends in our environments. This little celebration ENFPs are having of the appreciation of native talent in "verbal fireworks" is an indicator of how appreciated it is by most others: it isn't. That's not because it's not valuable, but because it's the step that people's psyches naturally don't like, what with their preference for confirmation bias. Change is painful. It's not preferable. It requires more energy output on the part of the body, energy that could be devoted to something else. So people don't like our fireworks... they see us as impetuous, as vulgar, as foolish. As a waste of time.

    But since I was going the way of biochemistry... ENFPs are often termed catalysts. Consider the literal implication of that... we lower the activation energy required for change to take place. Given that the vast majority of reactions within the human body would not take place within a timeframe conducive to life if not for the presence of catalyzing enzymes, it's worth consideration of the benefits of the acceleration of change that people like Brand induce. What needs change so fast? Discrimination... poverty... malnutrition... disease... environmental degradation...

    And yes, there will always be rebels without a cause. But I'll take one of those over another misguided NJ.


  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Okay, sensor
    so...sensors don't have your preferred tone either i suppose and are also invalid? got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    so...sensors don't have your preferred tone either i suppose and are also invalid? got it.
    No, I sprung that as a trap for someone else.

    Now you've gone and activated it before its proper time, tho.


  6. #56
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    I also think skylights makes good points above.

    She gets invited to the adults table.

  7. #57
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    trap setting makes perfect sense.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I also think skylights makes good points above.

    She gets invited to the adults table.
    this whole mocking thing...is it new? i've never noticed it so much. it's not a good look.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    trap setting makes perfect sense.
    I wouldn't necessarily expect it to.

    It has to do with another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    this whole mocking thing...is it new? i've never noticed it so much. it's not a good look.
    You're just reading me incorrectly.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily expect it too.

    It has to do with another thread.




    You're just reading me incorrectly.
    oh okay...tell me how sitting at the adult table is cool then.

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