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  1. #31
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, actually, it's not.



    That much, at least, is true.

    Without a collaborative process in which all the relevant voices are heard, one is unlikely to arrive at the right solution.



    This dialogue has been going on long before Russell Brand joined it.

    And we are all already well aware of the elephant he is pointing at.

    Also, I have analyzed his policy proposals, and they are indeed wrong.



    Hey, he can say whatever the fuck he wants.

    And, frankly, I have conversations with all kinds of people, and try to incorporate everything I hear from all of them into my analysis.

    I'm just saying, he clearly demonstrated multiple times that he does no such thing, and has no fucking clue what he's talking about.
    That's just not true. He knows exactly what he's saying. It's just not anything you value. There's a huge difference.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Sigh. See, this is what I mean with the 'shut up and be quiet' - treatment. And it's why I don't bother with it anymore.
    Amar, I was just thinking to myself this morning, as I do every so often, about how much I appreciate your posting.

    Just because some (not all) ENFPs have no real place at the adult table when it comes to politics and economics, does not mean they have nothing to contribute ever on any topic.

    Frankly, it's rather ridiculous to think one should be listened to seriously on an important matter when one knows little-to-nothing about the subject.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    That's just not true. He knows exactly what he's saying. It's just not anything you value. There's a huge difference.
    No, actually, he doesn't.

    All he knows is how he feels.

    His policy proposals were insanely stupid.

    And he doesn't even understand why.

    Because he has no clue how the system actually works.

  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Amar, I was just thinking to myself this morning about how much I appreciate your posting.

    Just because many (not all) ENFPs have no real place at the adult table when it comes to politics and economics, does not mean they have nothing to contribute ever on any topic.

    Frankly, it's rather ridiculous to think one should be listened to seriously on an important matter when one knows little-to-nothing on the subject.
    You're missing the point.

    We readily admitted that ignorance might be a factor. It's about the kid who doesn't know anything about court life going: look, the emperor has NO CLOTHES!

    It is a fundamental aspect of being an ENFP champion. Truth be told, I took that criticism to heart, every time someone like yourself shot me down for doing just that. And I studied, and educated and what did I find? Not only did I let precious time go by in order to prepare my case, I *STILL* wasn't considered good enough for the adult table, just because my child-like way of presenting things wasn't appreciated. So I studied how to build up an argument.

    And now I find myself mourning that loss of spontaneity, of childlike honesty that I didn't know was precious.

    It isn't about being right or wrong. It is about bringing people together to work together on something that is a potential problem for our society/team. WE don't care about being right or wrong, generally. That we leave up to the Ni-users, trust me. We care about addressing shit everyone else is fucking tiptoeing around. Whether or not it actually needs revising is the next phase, and yes, not always in our area of expertise. Most of us however also have no problem sharing that spotlight and handing it over as we tend to readily recognise someone else's expertise, unlike some others.

    There is no need to know *everything* when your role is to rally the groups and cheer them on. That's what you bring in the expert NJ consultant for. To evaluate things and yes, to do the adult table thing.

    It also would be *NICE* to fucking well be appreciated instead of clobbered for the actual significant contribution we make to those talks though. Instead of being mocked as the court jester and clueless idiot.

    For that matter, let's see your INTJ ass speak up, rally troups, charm an audience, inspire them with genuine passion and get away with it. And you still have a small shot at it, being sx-so, I'd wager.

    Recognize it for the skill it is and the value it has. It would be greatly appreciated.
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  5. #35
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, actually, he doesn't.

    All he knows is how he feels.

    His policy proposals were insanely stupid.

    And he doesn't even understand why.

    Because he has no clue how the system actually works.
    But none of that is what he was saying. It wasn't his intention to speak as an authority on that. He didn't fail at his attempt. He was attempting something else.

  6. #36
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    But none of that is what he was saying. It wasn't his intention to speak as an authority on that. He didn't fail at his attempt. He was attempting something else.
    Exactly.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're missing the point.

    We readily admitted that ignorance might be a factor. It's about the kid who doesn't know anything about court life going: look, the emperor has NO CLOTHES!
    No, you're missing the point.

    In that this is rarely a novel observation, and really contributes next to nothing to the advancement of the search for truth.

    It is a fundamental aspect of being an ENFP champion. Truth be told, I took that criticism to heart, every time someone like yourself shot me down for doing just that. And I studied, and educated and what did I find? Not only did I let precious time go by in order to prepare my case, I *STILL* wasn't considered good enough for the adult table, just because my child-like way of presenting things wasn't appreciated. So I studied how to build up an argument.

    And now I find myself mourning that loss of spontaneity, of childlike honesty that I didn't know was precious.

    It isn't about being right or wrong. It is about bringing people together to work together on something that is a potential problem for our society/team. WE don't care about being right or wrong, generally. That we leave up to the Ni-users, trust me. We care about addressing shit everyone else is fucking tiptoeing around. Whether or not it actually needs revising is the next phase, and yes, not always in our area of expertise. Most of us however also have no problem sharing that spotlight and handing it over as we tend to readily recognise someone else's expertise, unlike some others.

    There is no need to know *everything* when your role is to rally the groups and cheer them on. That's what you bring in the expert NJ consultant for. To evaluate things and yes, to do the adult table thing.
    The bolded is where you're wrong.

    The point is to be right, whether you know it and respect it or not.

    If the decisions you make are not the right ones, you end up with less-than-optimal results.

    It also would be *NICE* to fucking well be appreciated instead of clobbered for the actual significant contribution we make to those talks though. Instead of being mocked as the court jester and clueless idiot.
    But I think often you all DON'T actually contribute much to these talks.

    You all sure seem to WANT to, and thus surely make your voice heard, at which time those who know just kind of roll their eyes.

    At worst, you start detracting from the conversation by bringing up worthless topics that are already known, and have already been incorporated into the analysis, but you say them as if they have not already been (and rather loudly).

    For that matter, let's see your INTJ ass speak up, rally troups, charm an audience, inspire them with genuine passion and get away with it. And you still have a small shot at it, being sx-so, I'd wager.
    Yeah, I do.

    It's not nearly as readily available for me as it is for you, but, as those who have heard me know, I am a force to be reckoned with.

    The difference is, I will be extremely knowledgable about what I'm talking about, have the facts and arguments at hand, and be absolutely right about the subject.

    Recognize it for the skill it is and the value it has. It would be greatly appreciated.
    I recognized it plenty before you posted in here.

    That you chose to seemingly gloss over those parts was not my doing.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    But none of that is what he was saying. It wasn't his intention to speak as an authority on that. He didn't fail at his attempt. He was attempting something else.
    He is editing a political magazine.

    He talked about policy proposals.

    He talked about what's supposedly wrong with the system.

    He talked about how he would change things (barely).

    He claimed that things need to change.

    And on all these counts, he is fucking clueless.

    Did he do other stuff too?

    Yes.

    Did he succeed at it?

    Yes.

    He vented his feelings.

    And that is all he did.

  9. #39
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Yup. It's just coz you value being right more than we do. And therefore consider the rest irrelevant. And unfortunately, this is common practice wrt this particular ENFP trait

    If you go back to the Op though, and even after that, Forever_Jung reiterated that that was *NOT* the point of this thread.

    And I wanna take this moment to smooch the stuffing out of @Forever_Jung for starting this thread and this topic

    Forever_Jung

    You rocked my world tonight, baby
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Just because some ENFPs have no real place at the adult table...
    You know as the holidays approach... I just would like to mention that I truly feel I'm ready to use a regular glass-glass this year. Not that tupperware cup thing...

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