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  1. #1
    brainheart
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    Default Two Different Kinds of INFJs

    In Psychological Types, Jung describes two kinds of Introverted Intuitives:

    1. The Aesthetic Intuitive

    The artist might be regarded as the normal representative of this type, which tends to confine itself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his main problem and- in the case of a creative artist- the shaping of his perception. But the crank is content with a visionary idea by which he himself is shaped and determined. Naturally the intensification of intuition often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his immediate circle. If he is an artist, he reveals strange, far-off things in his art, shimmering in all colors, at once portentous and banal, beautiful and grotesque, sublime and whimsical. If not an artist, he is frequently a misunderstood genius, a great man "gone wrong," a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for "psychological" novels.
    The shift from one type to the other

    Although the intuitive type has little inclination to make a moral problem of perception, since a strengthening of the judging functions is required for this, only a slight differentiation of judgment is sufficient to shift intuitive perception from the purely aesthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from the aesthetic, although it is none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem arises when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its aesthetic configuration and evaluation, when he confronts the questions: What does this mean for me or the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or a task, for me or the world? The pure intuitive who represses his judgment, or whose judgment is held in thrall by his perceptive faculties, never faces this question squarely, since his only problem is the "know-how" of perception. He finds the moral problem unintelligible or absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell on this disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally-oriented intuitive.
    2. The morally-oriented intuitive

    He reflects on the meaning of his vision, and is less concerned with developing its aesthetic possibilities than with the moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and a whole human being, is somehow involved in his vision, that it is not just an object to be perceived, but wants to participate in the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But since he tends to rely most predominantly on his vision, his moral efforts become one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic- adapted, it is true to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to present-day reality. He thus deprives himself of any influence upon it because he remains uncomprehended. His language is not the one currently spoken- it has become too subjective. His arguments lack the convincing power of reason. He can only profess or proclaim. His is "the voice of one crying in the wilderness."
    Obviously these descriptions apply to both INTJs and INFJs, but I'm focusing on the INFJ here (INTJs are free to chime in too). I find this interesting because I think, for the most part, the second type of INFJ is the one who is presented in most INFJ descriptions. Is that because Fe= moral judgment? Could the INFJ who uses little Fe even be considered an INFJ, or should they just be described as a Ni user?

    INFJs, which of these two types would you say you are most like? How do Ni and Fe play out for you?

  2. #2
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    The way that I see the difference (i.e. the way I see Fe playing out in me) is that I don't really feel much internal pressure to know my own position on things immediately. I feel like it's the difference between wanting to know the temperature of the water before I get into the pool vs. (perhaps the Fi counter pov) knowing the temperature of my own body before I get into the pool? It seems to me like NFPs pay attention to their own body temperature because they can take for granted the outside temperature will be manageable- but they feel an urgency to make sure the internal temperature is okay? Whereas I personally can take for granted that the internal temperature will be okay if I make sure the external temperature won't bounce around in extremes.

    And a big point of contention for me in listening to these discussions is that I can preemptively imagine someone quoting that^ with some response explaining that it's annoying how Fe feels an urgency to 'control the external before the internal'. I really have no idea how much of a problem this really is (across the entire Fe umbrella), but I know that I actually already have issues with negative entitlement- feeling entitled to enforcing my own 'ideal temperature' on others is absolutely loathesome to me. I try to ignore the extent to which something isn't my 'ideal temperature' and do the best I can functioning in it. I have to be REALLY backed into a corner without any alternatives before I feel I have any right to expect the external environment to change for me. And I think people would be surprised at how many INFJs have this exact same sentiment- not expecting anything on the outside to change for us, but simply backing away and not wanting to participate (or limiting participation) where the temperature departs too much from what we need.

    And I actually envy INFPs their ability to know when something isn't right for them. It seems like they are more quickly able to say, "I don't like this because ____" -whereas an INFJ might need to quietly back away because *something* has become unbearable, but we'll have absolutely no idea what it is. eta: Sometimes we do, and as I get older it has become more of a priority to focus on it (internal temp)- because as I get older I realize that simply backing away from people without being able to explain why is a problem- but it certainly isn't an inherent priority and it takes extra conscious effort to figure it out.


    As for the two different types in the op- I'll have to let that idea cook and come back to it. eta: My whole point here though is that I don't see Fe as being 'moral judgment' in me- it's the organic direction of my attention, that I pay attention to the external temperature more than the internal temperature? Not so that I can control it, I really feel more like an observer just fascinated with trying to make sense of it all. So I really don't know where I'd fall on that spectrum in the op.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #3
    Member CatBalou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I actually envy INFPs their ability to know when something isn't right for them. It seems like they are more quickly able to say, "I don't like this because ____" -whereas an INFJ might need to quietly back away because *something* has become unbearable, but we'll have absolutely no idea what it is.
    This is completely my experience, both personally and work-wise. I can very easily fool myself into thinking that I'm happy with a situation, or just a few minor things need tweaking, when in fact it's sucking the very soul out of me.

    On a more mundane level, I've had bosses complain that I don't take enough initiative to improve processes where I could - which is true, and tends to be because I just don't believe I can change the external world Probably also because I'm not a TJ...

    As for the OP, the first version sounds incredibly 5ish. That's got to be a pretty small percentage of any population, or maybe they just don't crawl out of their holes very often

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    Quote Originally Posted by CatBalou View Post
    This is completely my experience, both personally and work-wise. I can very easily fool myself into thinking that I'm happy with a situation, or just a few minor things need tweaking, when in fact it's sucking the very soul out of me.

    On a more mundane level, I've had bosses complain that I don't take enough initiative to improve processes where I could - which is true, and tends to be because I just don't believe I can change the external world Probably also because I'm not a TJ...

    As for the OP, the first version sounds incredibly 5ish. That's got to be a pretty small percentage of any population, or maybe they just don't crawl out of their holes very often
    I very much relate to the first version.

  5. #5
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    The first describes my close 4w5 INFJ friend to a tee. I don't especially relate to either though- probably the first more than the second, but neither resonate especially well for me. I don't really understand what he's saying in that second description though.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm not really sure if I relate to either description either. I mean, yes, there is a definitely a moral component to my orientation to the world, but mostly it has practical expression. There are some things I think are reasonable, but understand others see as overly idealistic or too detail-ridden to really get on board with and generally I let those kind percolate until take a more definite practical form. Sometimes that is frustrating to me because I feel certain of the way I see things, but am unconvinced of my ability to sell anyone else on it. I don't really relate to the first one at all.

  7. #7
    Anamolic Amalgamation Forever's Avatar
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    INFJ Subtypes: Intuitive Ni-INFJs and ethical Fe-INFJs
    Intro: People of same MBTI type place slightly different emphasis on their cognitive functions. These differences in functional emphasis produce discernible differences in attitudes and behaviors and gives rise to two subtypes: one defined by its leading function and another by its auxiliary function.

    What if I cannot identify with either of the subtypes? Subtypes demarcate two poles of a single continuous spectrum. Some INFJs may find themselves on the far ends of those poles and be able to easily associate with either subtype. Many others may fall in the middle in which case you won't have an easily distinguishable subtype.

    Why are there only two subtypes? Because the functions are all connected to each other through three jungian dichotomies: Extroversion-Introversion, Intuition-Sensing, and Thinking-Feeling. Weakening or strengthening one function will produces a domino effect across their entire functional layout. For example, strengthening INFJ's dominant function Ni has the result of weakening sensing, Se, in accordance to Intuition-Sensing dichotomy and Extroversion-Introversion dichotomy, as well as weakening of extroverted ethics in accordance to Extroversion-Introversion dichotomy, since Ni is introverted function. Two subtypes exist since one can either increase effects of the dominant function or the auxiliary one.

    What effect does this have on other functions? Strengthening of introverted intuition in intuitive subtype of INFJ has the effect of strengthening introverted logic, Ti, weakening extroverted feeling and sensing and thereby enhancing introversion of the intuitive subtype. Intuitive INFJs thus have heightened introspective and analytical abilities, lowered sensitivity to ethical transgressions, and a vivid imagination, but may seem inert, prone to doubt and excessive mental rumination, and in poor contact and awareness of the reality of everyday life. Strengthening of extroverted ethics leads to bolstering of extroverted sensing as well as de-emphasis on introverted intuition and introverted logic, which makes Fe-INFJs more dynamic, diplomatic, and energetic, less prone to over-analyze things into oblivion, but also more sensitive to criticism and conflict, more "flighty" and inconsistent.

    Do subtypes affect MBTI typing? In general, yes. Intuitive INFJs are prone to mistyping themselves (and getting mistyped by others) as introverted logical types such as INTJ and INTP. This is especially true if they happen to be in enneagram competency triad (1,3,5). As its name would imply, this triad prioritizes competency and prefers to solve problems in an objective, unemotional manner (INFJ 1s are particularly data rational and may have more of a scientist bent to them). This gives them the appearance of MBTI's logical types. INFJs far off in the ethical spectrum are highly dynamic and may have trouble keeping consistent and internalizing the logical framework behind the MBTI types and are prone to switching across several different types and mistyping themselves as ISFPs, INFPs, and ISFJs.



    Ni-INFJ: The Idealist

    APPEARANCE

    The intuitive subtype appears as a quiet, tactful, languid and diffident individual. They seem torn off from reality, inert and poorly adapted to life. However, such impressions are erroneous, for they possess a fine intuition, which aids them in establishing useful connections and obtaining support from influential people. Seem externally serene but sentimentally are disposed to experience moodiness and bouts of melancholy. While their voice at times seems monotonous they often induce a light surprise, even full interest, from the interlocutor. Outwardly are pensive, slightly strained/intense. Prone to emanate sadness masked in sardonic irony. Speech is measured, smooth and intimately heart-felt. On their face they almost constantly exude a polite half-smile that easily wins people’s trust. Gestures are modest, shy. Gait is ponderous, elegant.

    CHARACTER

    Gentle and considerate person. In his heart is a dreamer and a romantic. Has figurative, associative memory, and can recall experiences from the past down to the smallest detail. Reminiscing about the past, he recalls all the mistakes and mishaps, then extracts from them lessons for the future. Thanks to a strong intuition sees short-term prospects of affairs and relations, but because of the tendency to idealize everything may also overestimate them. Under any circumstances, does not lose hope that in future everything will be better than the current situation.

    Somewhat unsure in himself, is inclined to doubt and hesitate in cases he has to speak or act decisively. He does not like to rush, can delay carrying out tasks and finding solutions to problems to an indefinite period of time, or even never get to them. Does not aspire to leadership, experiences difficulties with organizational functions. Gravitates more towards intellectual sphere of activity than to direct management and production.

    In work, can become distracted by irrelevant, minor things, and thus run out of time to do the more important tasks. He does not like stereotypes, conventionality, strict order, having to follow strict rules and regulations. In his apartment or at his workplace may allow for artistic mess and disorganization. Being economical and having good entrepreneurial judgment is not in his nature, because of this he might miss out on promising opportunities.

    Does not like routine and monotony, desires new experiences, gravitates towards interesting and unusual people. Likes conversion about various unconventional and esoteric phenomena. Willingly accepts and promotes imaginative ideas and innovative approaches, but is wary of new ventures, in such cases prefers to yield initiative to strong-willed and assertive people. However, if necessary, exhibits outstanding diplomatic skills, achieving success where others have failed - straightforward and eager partners, don’t place much value on flexibility in relationships.

    Sensitive and attentive to people, tries to maintain smooth relations with everyone. Due to the absentmindedness sometimes forgets to fulfill his promises, but then does his best to make amends. At the same time, exhibits tolerance towards other people's flaws and weaknesses. Does not know which of the two disputants he should favor, therefore, will try to reconcile them.

    Needs moral, physical, and material support. Respects strong, influential people. Relationships that have been exhausted does not break immediately, as he grows accustomed to people. Knows how to wait patiently and how to adapt to any circumstances. For the sake of good relations with family, tries to meet the demands they put on him, tries to develop practical skills, perform work and fulfill his family responsibilities.







    Fe-INFJ: The Diplomat

    APPEARANCE

    The ethical subtype makes an impression of a soft, charming and emotional person. Usually look inspired and optimistic. Possess a fine sense of humor allowing them to list their problems and failures while smiling. Are ironic, crafty, unpredictably and inconsistent in behaviour and conversation. Creating original contrasts, they can unexpectedly prick and then just as quickly embrace/kiss. Artistic and charming; are eloquent in dialogue, occasionally portraying shades of familiarity and impudence. They’re generally affable, kind and careful. Easily draw attention and thereby attract people; talent towards persuasion: states requests in such a manner that it is difficult to refuse them. Movements are graceful as is their gait. Speech is emotional, rich with shades, sometimes melodious.

    CHARACTER

    Emotional and charming, easily and naturally comes into contact with strangers, predisposing them to trust with his warmth and sincerity. Able to cheer up others, make them laugh with his unusual antics and utterances. Figuratively, with a good sense of humor, tells stories of what he has experienced and seen. Well versed in the feelings and sentiments of others, knows how to establish useful contacts in order to achieve his goals, how to find the most suitable candidates for the job conceived. Often phrases his requests in such a form that one cannot refuse him.

    He loves to be at the center of attention. Elegant, skillful in his ability to please, readily gives compliments to others. Able to find an individual approach to each person. He loves and knows how to reconcile a dispute. Often is ironic and sarcastic, but states even the displeasing things as if in jest, and with a smile. Unobtrusive in his feelings - if he does not see reciprocity, he will distance.

    Easy lights up with a new idea, but can quickly lose interest in it, if it requires a lot of patience and effort for its realization. He needs praise and encouragement. Sensitive towards any criticisms, or if his work goes unnoticed by others. In such cases his enthusiasm for work is lowered. At the same time, praise issued in advance will encourage him to overcome difficulties, helps to gain confidence in himself.

    Somewhat touchy and suggestible. Has a tendency to show off to others his physical or intellectual suffering. If he senses danger, his uneasy and restless mood will be transmitted to others. In my heart is very vulnerable and very upset by their failures. Internally contradictory, prone to abrupt mood swings from laughter to tears, and vice versa. Proves his case passionately, accepts advice only when he has calmed down, until the next emotional outburst. Needs the support of strong-willed, energetic people.


    Readily shares his problems with others, looking for sympathy, understanding, support. Consults with others before making important decisions, though does not always follow their advice. Independent by nature, impulsive, unpredictable in his actions. Prone to impromptu acts and improvisations.

    In some situations, evokes awe and admiration in others by exhibiting fearlessness in dangerous situations. Nonchalant and imperturbable, but this is only a tactic that allows him to make an impression on others. This serene state is infectious; it passes onto others, allowing them to distance from their everyday worries and problems.

    Graceful in his movements, shows refinement, good manners, dresses tastefully. His residence is clean and neat. He has an aesthetic taste, like ornaments and refined decorations. Appreciates comfort. Cares about his own appearance as well as those of others. Can buy extra stuff, wasteful and uneconomical. Does not like those who are stingy over small sums. Does not place much value on things, his own or those of others. Lending or loaning something, may forget about them for a long time.


    http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23733

    I like these two better.

  8. #8
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @brainheart, regarding the OP: I relate much more to 1. The Aesthetic Intuitive.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

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    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    I defiantly have tendencies of both but I’d say more of Ni for the post by @Forever (which I do like better also) and the first for the OP. It’s actually funny because my mom typed me as an INTJ when she was first introduced it type but I’m just not that logical. I’ve always kind of questioned my INFJ ness though. I felt a little too cold to ever completely settle on it. Fi never seemed to fit so I couldn’t settle on INFP either. I never considered that maybe I just had a little too much Ni in my Ni Fe balance going on which kind of explains the 4w5 for enneagram too. Humm Interesting.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

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    INFPs and INTPs fit the description too as they're also introverted intuitive types.

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