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  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I have a number of possible INFPs I like to try to be friends with, but sometimes with two introverts I find some communication confusion. I have one friend who is a bit distant and so I've thought she was trying to show me that she did not feel a connection. I also am kinda distant and relate to a lot of what is said here, but I will tend to take crazy risks when it's important to me and I'm up to it. A recent, new INFP friend I can tell tends to worry and read into things, so I've reassured a few times, but this person sends what could be interpreted as mixed signals. They seem pretty shy in communication and even nervous, but we've chatted and it felt very much at ease for me, so it felt like a real connection. We are friends on FB, but now I feel like any responses to messages are quite abrupt and sparse, so it feels like I should stop communicating, but I thought because of the shyness and connection I felt irl, that I should just go ahead and communicate as I normally would w/o feeling stressed about being an intrusion.

    What's hard for me - and I don't know if it's type or not, but being an annoyance or intrusion is a huuuuge fear of mine, so to keep plugging away like I am in this instance makes me uneasy and even a little scared.
    I wouldn't take Facebook communication as meaning much. I think INFPs tend to suck at that sort of thing - I know I do. I drop off the planet and don't return texts or Facebook messages on a regular basis. Also, I've also been told my written communication is "terse". Sometimes if there isn't a lot to say I just go into Te mode and simply write only necessary information. I've written emails that literally go like this:

    Hi,

    I'm unable to find file X. Could you please send it to me?

    Thanks,
    Southern Kross

    I'm not good at adding the personal touches and flourishes (unless it's a sort of casual conversation). I can see it sounds abrupt and not all that friendly, but I have no idea what else to say.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Sorry for the wall of text here... this is the kind of thing I can analyze into infinity because of all the confusing pieces of the puzzle I have but have trouble making sense of.

    --------

    I've thought about this somewhat…. and I agree with much of what @FineLine & @Southern Kross says (with some exceptions - ie. I tended be overly formal in emails, with little flourishes of "hope all is well with you" and "please don't hesitate to contact me should you have any questions", etc. This, oddly, made people MAD. I don't know if they read the formal politeness as "condescending" in its contrivance or what. But I dropped it & became more terse after seeing the success an ESFP co-worker had in sending out incomplete sentences with no punctuation & no greetings, and being a great favorite among clients.).

    I definitely have paranoia over being "too much" with others, as well as being a weirdo. I have a problem with picking up on certain social cues, which I can't even begin to describe because it's that big of a blind spot. The only reason I will know I have messed up in some way is I am good, perhaps TOO good, at picking up on emotional responses & attitudes in people (that even they may not be conscious they are sending). However, I tend to not place things in context that well & can blow a small reaction into rejection (I tend to go negative with my readings). I suddenly get the sense of people being careful or cool with me, or polite but not friendly, or even outright snubbing (which I tend to see as cues of "you're not playing our game right" as if it's on purpose, and so I must be shamed/punished for it).
    This is especially stinging for me if I feel I ventured out of my shell a bit & being me has just been stamped with disapproval. This leaves me in some paralysis as to how "strong" to come across with people, which leads to a "hot & cold" effect or being so walled-off I think I'm invisible and inconsequential to the point of no one bothering to interact with me.

    But to answer your question about others coming on really strong… generally I receive it fine, but with a few caveats that might be predictable for an INFP 4w5:

    - Emotional Manipulation - I very am sensitive to it and cannot stand it. I'm sure no one likes this, but many still use it, whether or conscious or not. This includes not only guilt-tripping, but also the social-shaming I spoke of above. It can also be a pushiness to affect me - to change my mood, my feelings, and my boundaries, and it uses underhanded methods. These people can be very gushy & "too much too soon" given the shallowness of the connection.

    I mean, in every connection there is some seeking to affect & allowing oneself to be affected, but it's someone trying to force it or its terms that can bug me. I need to be given space to respond in my own time, in my own way (though not to say I am rude).

    Fi-dom tend to resist being affected (ie. emotionally moved to a visible response) unless they deem something as having a connection to an existing feeling-concept. So if someone gets pushy about me adjusting to meet some emotional temperature, then I can get more & more walled-off. Like, I'm cool with someone coming up to me & being excited & happy & overflowing with emotion, but don't demand or expect that energy level to be met. It has nothing to do with whether I like you or not. If I don't know you, then I cannot respond enthusiastically because I have no meaning attached to you. So I tend to stay with my own mood, or an indifference which reflects the suspension of judgement I have about you until I get more data.

    The reason ExFPs do well with me there, is because they allow me to keep my own state. So I have the impression of them being these warm, friendly, upbeat people who are NOT emotionally manipulative or judgey or projecting crap onto me. Then, guess what? The next time I see them, I am likely to be a bit warmer, because I have a positive value attached to them now, not a neutral one. I don't usually have any problem with introversion intensity, because there's rarely a sense of needing you to adjust to the external in the way Es expect.

    This is not to say I am not nice & polite with people I do not know. But this is in response to a value for human beings by virtue of them being human beings, not a value of their individual character. This is perfectly acceptable to many types who think this makes you a nice person to be indiscriminately kind, but it seems problematic with those who may think it's a kind of coldness because it's not gushy.

    As a side (like this wall-o-text needs to be any longer), I have a trouble with the kind of chit-chat others seem to bond over. I listen to many conversations and it just sounds like "noise" to me. It's not plain ol' small talk (talk of the weather & polite inquiries into health or work), but some kind of bonding communication people have. I can't even begin to describe it because I don't even know what it IS. I can't identify a content. It's just seems like babble to me. I have no idea how to participate in this or mimic it, and I'm sure this adds to my giving off an impression of being aloof and/or awkward. The only person I've ever seen this aloof/awkward in these situations is an older INFP 4w5 I know. She pretty much avoids group social things for the most part, and I suspect this is why.

    If I were to take a stab at this communication, there is something kind of cutesy, playful, and in-the-moment about it. But it still seems to say nothing about nothing. I notice many friendships seem formed & based on this kind of interaction. If I were to try to be a part of it, then I fail at being cute - too intense & awkward. I fail at the playful - too wry & dry, my banter has too much edge at times, aiming for a wit that is half-truth & half-cheeky. Or it's just too weird for anyone to follow. I recently told someone they reminded me of macaroni and cheese (as a compliment of course); don't think it was deemed cute or playful. And in the moment is hard for me, for rather obvious reasons. So when I have tried to be a part of this kind of communication, I find it like a record screeching to a halt. And as this feels vulnerable to me, I'm sensitive to all the signals that I am not being quite appropriate, that my emotional temperature is not in-line.


    - Emotional Manipulation Pt II - This is a different variety. These are people who may approach me like a bomb they have to disarm. I get this a lot from e6 women. It's not because I have displayed any "danger", but I haven't displayed much at all. This makes them very nervous. I find them approaching me like I need to be "appeased". There is a lot of false flattery & trying to play to my ego (or what they perceive it to be). They lay it on too thick, basically.

    Because I easily sense their nervousness, I tend to find them disingenuous. They are really seeking to form a connection with me to soothe their doubts about who I am & what I may do, not because they have a genuine liking of me. I don't like being "kissed up to" or dealt with as if I need to be handled with kid's gloves, because it's indirectly insulting. I like when people approach me as they would normally approach anyone. There's something more egalitarian & non-assumptive about that that I respond to better.

    - Smothering & Suffocating - This is a lack of respect for boundaries & perhaps different ideas of politeness. If I sense someone is demanding something from me emotionally that they are not owed (or trying to indebt me with emotional manipulation), then I begin to assert boundaries. I admit I do this more passively, because it creates too much conflict to be direct with people (which I'd prefer, but it's just way too Te for most). I withdraw, and if they continue to PUSH, then I know they are not respecting my boundary. All I have usually said is "not right now". People either ignore this or take it too personally. Most of the time, I just don't have the emotional energy to give at that moment, and I need that respected.

    I can agree with FineLine about a chipping away being necessary, and this general wall or slow to warm up-ness is not the same as the boundary setting I speak of.

    Lastly, I have the most horrible sense of time you can imagine. So I drop off the face of the earth easily. The 5 wing can turn even my own desires into "obligations", and then I feel terrible guilt over the emails I don't respond to, the phone calls I don't return, etc. That only serves to make me correlate these things with GUILT, so that it seems like an unpleasant task. So while I am bemoaning alienation from people, I am also avoiding answering my phone. I see the contradiction there & know it's MY problem. One way people can avoid entering this dynamic with me is to just be open to picking up where we left off last we connected, and to not take it personally & get pouty (read: guilt-trippy) about it.

    I briefly dated this ESTP recently and it was brief because poutiness and wanting explanations for not returning his calls/texts in a timely manner began to make me associate him with unpleasant feelings. Even though when interacting with him, it was always pleasant & interesting. It was more like during the time we were NOT interacting, I was plagued with guilt about it, and I resented that my time could not be my OWN, as if I had to justify it.


    - Emotional Dumping - More than most people, I am very comfortable with messy emotions, intense expression, and generally hearing the more unnerving feelings people may have. But even I have some boundaries. I don't like to feel like someone's free therapist, either because we have no connection or because it's one-way giving. This can often be a matter of how frequently they dump over how intense it is. People may sometimes do this too soon with me, and later on they become uncomfortable about it. They can begin to associate ME with their unpleasant feelings, because I'm now some kind of reminder of it. I'm increasingly careful to avoid this now, because I feel like I get judged as the downer when they are the one compelled to open the floodgates (because of some presence I exude, I guess).

    If you notice a trend here, it's that I tend to approach people with e4 hang-ups (shame, intensity, sense of being strange), but I tend to receive them with e5 hang-ups (overwhelmed by emotional "demands", guilted over not giving, suffocated). Then of course, there are INFP problems with reading social cues but hypersensitive to emotional energy & the valuations within it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ...
    I definitely have paranoia over being "too much" with others, as well as being a weirdo. I have a problem with picking up on certain social cues, which I can't even begin to describe because it's that big of a blind spot. The only reason I will know I have messed up in some way is I am good, perhaps TOO good, at picking up on emotional responses & attitudes in people (that even they may not be conscious they are sending). However, I tend to not place things in context that well & can blow a small reaction into rejection (I tend to go negative with my readings). I suddenly get the sense of people being careful or cool with me, or polite but not friendly, or even outright snubbing (which I tend to see as cues of "you're not playing our game right" as if it's on purpose, and so I must be shamed/punished for it).
    This is especially stinging for me if I feel I ventured out of my shell a bit & being me has just been stamped with disapproval. This leaves me in some paralysis as to how "strong" to come across with people, which leads to a "hot & cold" effect or being so walled-off I think I'm invisible and inconsequential to the point of no one bothering to interact with me.
    Some of the INFPs I try to get to know are definitely E4s, and I recently had 3 hours of awesome conversation with one that is now just a FB friend because they live further away and were just here temporarily. It happens to be a rather unusual person who did have slight hesitations in speech when telling me about some rather outlandish, but well integrated story-lines for creative projects. In person our communication style was exactly the same in terms of rhythm of speaking, accommodation and checking in with the others' needs, and getting lost in idea space, so it was just super-fun 100%. I'm just earnestly hoping that it established a friendship because it was important and unique for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As a side (like this wall-o-text needs to be any longer), I have a trouble with the kind of chit-chat others seem to bond over. I listen to many conversations and it just sounds like "noise" to me. It's not plain ol' small talk (talk of the weather & polite inquiries into health or work), but some kind of bonding communication people have. I can't even begin to describe it because I don't even know what it IS. I can't identify a content. It's just seems like babble to me. I have no idea how to participate in this or mimic it, and I'm sure this adds to my giving off an impression of being aloof and/or awkward. The only person I've ever seen this aloof/awkward in these situations is an older INFP 4w5 I know. She pretty much avoids group social things for the most part, and I suspect this is why.

    If I were to take a stab at this communication, there is something kind of cutesy, playful, and in-the-moment about it. But it still seems to say nothing about nothing. I notice many friendships seem formed & based on this kind of interaction. If I were to try to be a part of it, then I fail at being cute - too intense & awkward. I fail at the playful - too wry & dry, my banter has too much edge at times, aiming for a wit that is half-truth & half-cheeky. Or it's just too weird for anyone to follow. I recently told someone they reminded me of macaroni and cheese (as a compliment of course); don't think it was deemed cute or playful. And in the moment is hard for me, for rather obvious reasons. So when I have tried to be a part of this kind of communication, I find it like a record screeching to a halt. And as this feels vulnerable to me, I'm sensitive to all the signals that I am not being quite appropriate, that my emotional temperature is not in-line.
    There's more in your post I'd like to revisit because it's all useful for people to consider, but I completely agree about chit-chat and I find it almost ritualistic in its meaninglessness. I love to jump right into to deep conversations.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    (with some exceptions - ie. I tended be overly formal in emails, with little flourishes of "hope all is well with you" and "please don't hesitate to contact me should you have any questions", etc. This, oddly, made people MAD. I don't know if they read the formal politeness as "condescending" in its contrivance or what. But I dropped it & became more terse after seeing the success an ESFP co-worker had in sending out incomplete sentences with no punctuation & no greetings, and being a great favorite among clients.).
    Yeah, I know what you mean. What I should have said is, the only way I know how to soften (ie. make it more warm and friendly) my email writing style is to add in the sort of stock sentences you mentioned. I don't like using them because I feel like it's complete bullshit - I never would talk like that IRL and I'm sure everyone would notice that too. It's strange to think that in those situations, the only way I know how to be friendly is to be more formal. Perhaps it's Te attempting to mimic Fe; trying to systemise social cues.

    I don't usually have any problem with introversion intensity, because there's rarely a sense of needing you to adjust to the external in the way Es expect.
    Is this in reference to what I said earlier? I don't know, maybe I'm just a fretful, Social-dom, but I'm the opposite. For me, talking to an intense Introvert is like being forced to 'play the Extrovert'. It's the same when I'm around people that are messier than me - their messiness starts to stress me out and I feel like I have to 'play the Judger' and get things organised. So in a sense I feel there's more pressure on me to for adjust with extreme Introverts than with Extroverts; Extroverts do the work for me and I can just relax.

    God, this sounds so neurotic (which I probably am).

    As a side (like this wall-o-text needs to be any longer), I have a trouble with the kind of chit-chat others seem to bond over. I listen to many conversations and it just sounds like "noise" to me. It's not plain ol' small talk (talk of the weather & polite inquiries into health or work), but some kind of bonding communication people have. I can't even begin to describe it because I don't even know what it IS. I can't identify a content. It's just seems like babble to me. I have no idea how to participate in this or mimic it, and I'm sure this adds to my giving off an impression of being aloof and/or awkward.
    I don't like it either, but I can manage it. Personally, I see it as the equivalent of those email stock lines, like "I hope all is well with you". It's just for the sake of others; to acknowledge their existence. It's like saying, "you are a person with feelings, experiences, and opinions of value" (even if they don't have much to say at the time, sometimes it's nice to be asked anyway), or more simply, "I notice you". Beyond that usage, I don't really have any interest in it. I certain can't bond over it or continue waffling on about it for very long. Mostly it just bores me silly.

    - Emotional Manipulation Pt II - This is a different variety. These are people who may approach me like a bomb they have to disarm. I get this a lot from e6 women. It's not because I have displayed any "danger", but I haven't displayed much at all. This makes them very nervous. I find them approaching me like I need to be "appeased". There is a lot of false flattery & trying to play to my ego (or what they perceive it to be). They lay it on too thick, basically.
    That's weird. I can't say I have any real experience of that. Maybe it's a cultural difference. Or maybe I'm just not scary enough.

    I do sometimes get the vague impression that people see me as 'difficult' and someone that has to be 'specially accommodated for'. Is that the same thing?

    Lastly, I have the most horrible sense of time you can imagine. So I drop off the face of the earth easily. The 5 wing can turn even my own desires into "obligations", and then I feel terrible guilt over the emails I don't respond to, the phone calls I don't return, etc. That only serves to make me correlate these things with GUILT, so that it seems like an unpleasant task. So while I am bemoaning alienation from people, I am also avoiding answering my phone. I see the contradiction there & know it's MY problem. One way people can avoid entering this dynamic with me is to just be open to picking up where we left off last we connected, and to not take it personally & get pouty (read: guilt-trippy) about it.


    Stop it. You're making me feel guilty about not messaging my friend back (seriously, it's been weeks).

    If you notice a trend here, it's that I tend to approach people with e4 hang-ups (shame, intensity, sense of being strange), but I tend to receive them with e5 hang-ups (overwhelmed by emotional "demands", guilted over not giving, suffocated). Then of course, there are INFP problems with reading social cues but hypersensitive to emotional energy & the valuations within it.
    Wow. Interesting observation. I'll have to think on that one.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15

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    A good way to be friends with an INFP is to honor her/his boundaries (they're shy, territorial folks), talk about what they value and shower them with an INFJ's Fe!

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momoness View Post
    A good way to be friends with an INFP is to honor her/his boundaries (they're shy, territorial folks), talk about what they value and shower them with an INFJ's Fe!
    I'm pretty good at showering with Fe when I'm impressed by the person. Just curious - can you describe what you mean by boundaries and being territorial folks? On one level I understand, but I was just checking in to see if there was any more specific nuance to what you mean by that. Could you give examples perhaps?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #17

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    Don't poke them too much, that is all. Let the secret-sharing come naturally. I had an INFJ potential partner wanting to know about my sex life on the second date.

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momoness View Post
    Don't poke them too much, that is all. Let the secret-sharing come naturally. I had an INFJ potential partner wanting to know about my sex life on the second date.
    This does sound like good advice in general, although I can see a Fi-dom being more sensitive to it. I can also see that INFJs with stronger Fe would be good at asking questions, and for some funny reason I'm not. I even had two ex-boyfriends complain to me that I didn't ask him enough questions about himself. I tend to rely more on observations. I tend to feel pressured to answer when people ask me questions and had a friend who used to ask financial questions which made me uncomfortable (but I still adored her). I'm the more intensely private sort of INFJ who relies on Ni-Ti enough that I think my "Fe" can look like Fi if that makes any sense. Ha - also I totally do not buy into MBTI as a rigid system of categories, so each person is more unique imo.

    I actually had a funny reversal issue in my conversations with my recent INFP friend because I did some extremely confessional creative work that they asked about and I had to skirt the question in a vague sort of answer. It never occurred to me that people would ask me about it. (edit: I wasn't offended though - I sort of liked the question. I'm almost never offended)
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
    Junior Member Susah's Avatar
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    I've definitely thought about these things a lot lately and this thread seems to have approached me just in time... I've been in an environment where I don't really know anyone and that makes me 'remember' how out of place I am... Oh dear... I had just begun to feel there was something really wrong with me, but reading what you guys have written helped a lot. Where are you in the real world? I don't think I have met anyone... oh I don't know... well, anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Most of my friendships are light; I don't open up and speak about things close to my heart. I accept that there are different friends for different sides of yourself - they don't all have to be best friends.
    This actually fascinates me a lot. When you get to know someone new and realise that it's a whole new experience. Of course every person is unique, but that does not necessarily mean that your 'attitude' towards everyone is. I mean, it isn't. With acquaintances I don't get this, but with people I get 'involved' with (that sounds odd but I suspect you know what I mean: I don't very often develop a genuine interest about people) I tend to ponder the dynamics of my feelings towards them.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What's hard for me - and I don't know if it's type or not, but being an annoyance or intrusion is a huuuuge fear of mine, so to keep plugging away like I am in this instance makes me uneasy and even a little scared.
    This really is perhaps the most central issue in my approach to people. Especially people I really like (or at least a certain category of them) I get completely convinced that any attempt of mine to get to know them will be an annoyance. That they will respond and be nice because they're not assholes, but that really they just despise me. I realise this is actually a bit horrible of me; especially if they are nice people they might very well take a genuine interest in me, not out of mere duty. And what perhaps makes it more horrible is that (and this is most likely one of the reasons of the above) is that this is quite often my response to people approaching me. The only two people I've genuinely despised were people who had crushes on me. One of them was actually horrible, but I suspect the other one really didn't deserve it. And of course this is not my usual response - usually when someone shows they like you you like them back for it. Aargh... I hate this so much...


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is especially stinging for me if I feel I ventured out of my shell a bit & being me has just been stamped with disapproval. This leaves me in some paralysis as to how "strong" to come across with people, which leads to a "hot & cold" effect or being so walled-off I think I'm invisible and inconsequential to the point of no one bothering to interact with me.
    Yeah... I'm really struggling with this at the moment as well. I've been working very hard the last couple of years to peek out of my shell, but it really feels like every time it's just been a complete disaster and backfire. Presently I just don't know can take it anymore.

    As to approaching vs. being approached: I genuinely am the worst person ever at approaching people. I really appreciate being put in 'formal situations' so I have to talk to people because otherwise I just won't. As I said above, recently I've been in a context where I don't really know anyone, but I really should by now - I've been going there for years. Some times I am bothered by this and wish I could just start talking to people, but at the moment I don't even have the motivation. I was sitting next to someone who seems really nice and theoretically I'd really like to get to know him, but I realised that if I talked to him it would just be cold talk anyway and I just wasn't interested.

  10. #20
    Junior Member Susah's Avatar
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    Oh and another thing I've been thinking about recently: when you 'complain' that you can't talk to people and you're told that that is good because it means you're a good listener. It really doesn't - necessarily. Would you guys say you're good at listening? Well, okay, I'm probably better than those who just talk over everyone. But I would not say I'm particularly good at it.

    Again, I think this is to do with not wanting to approach people. If people talk at me, I am good at listening. What it really is that I'm not very good at is asking questions and making people talk. It just feels so presumptive and intrusive. I realise this is probably not the case, and asking someone how something went is actually really nice, but I always feel like I'm being invasive: if they want to tell me they can tell me - I shouldn't 'force' them to do so.

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