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  1. #41
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The link to them is on this page: http://cognitivetype.com/profiles/fi.html
    Thanks!

  2. #42
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Most of the above deals with a cool, aloof demeanor that seems dismissive of the joy or pain others are expressing. It's a resistance to being affected, so as to keep the purity of your own feelings. This is important for maintaining integrity at times & being willing to go against the tide & take a stand for what is right, but other times, it just makes you look cold, or a downer, or self-absorped, etc.
    Yes, great observation. There is that need to remain emotionally distanced, because you must remain relatively objective and able to make the tough decisions.

    But @highlander I wouldn't be so freaked out by that, because, we still experience the feelings of pity or concern for others. We still internalise the emotive aspect, and acknowledge it, but we have to mentally separate the crucial data from the 'irrelevant details'. If we didn't do this we'd never be able to make decisions. We'd be stuck in the state of feeling sorry for everyone, or being worried about all the possible negative outcomes on individuals, or that people won't like us, or just endlessly regretting the fact that we ended up in this difficult situation in the first place - and all this would just completely paralyse us. IxFPs are naturally inclined to search desperately for win-win situations, but the real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, accept that some negative outcomes are inevitable, and that in many cases, not everyone can win. Learning this is essential for gaining maturity in a IxFP - it's about finding a way to reconcile our natural idealism with realism.

    I think you also need to realise that this is done on the foundation of strong principles. It is not the abandonment of empathy and decency, it is about surrendering to a 'greater good' (as much as I dislike the implications that phrase has) and more pressing form of decency. It is not based on shifting, unstable ground, where we just capriciously harden our hearts whenever it suits us. Hell, we may be shutting down our own feelings and preferences just as much.
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  3. #43
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, great observation. There is that need to remain emotionally distanced, because you must remain relatively objective and able to make the tough decisions.

    But @highlander I wouldn't be so freaked out by that, because, we still experience the feelings of pity or concern for others. We still internalise the emotive aspect, and acknowledge it, but we have to mentally separate the crucial data from the 'irrelevant details'. If we didn't do this we'd never be able to make decisions. We'd be stuck in the state of feeling sorry for everyone, or being worried about all the possible negative outcomes on individuals, or that people won't like us, or just endlessly regretting the fact that we ended up in this difficult situation in the first place - and all this would just completely paralyse us. IxFPs are naturally inclined to search desperately for win-win situations, but the real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, accept that some negative outcomes are inevitable, and that in many cases, not everyone can win. Learning this is essential for gaining maturity in a IxFP - it's about finding a way to reconcile our natural idealism with realism.

    I think you also need to realise that this is done on the foundation of strong principles. It is not the abandonment of empathy and decency, it is about surrendering to a 'greater good' (as much as I dislike the implications that phrase has) and more pressing form of decency. It is not based on shifting, unstable ground, where we just capriciously harden our hearts whenever it suits us. Hell, we may be shutting down our own feelings and preferences just as much.
    That's a great explanation.

    With respect to "shifting" or "unstable ground" though, do you admit that it can sometimes appear this way to others because of the complete about face nature of the decision relative to actions leading up to it (i.e., seems to come out of the blue).

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  4. #44
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'd rather not get into specifics but you hit the nail on the head with that bolded sentence. When you're "out", you cease to exist for the IXFP. The judgment has been made. It can be a bit shocking because others don't realize that side is there.
    Just in my experience of being me, nobody is automatically out to begin with, and it's not even that easy to get out. The only catch is that the "out" button might be somewhere you don't expect. Fortunately, it gets more forgiving with maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's a resistance to being affected, so as to keep the purity of your own feelings. This is important for maintaining integrity at times & being willing to go against the tide & take a stand for what is right, but other times, it just makes you look cold, or a downer, or self-absorped, etc.
    This is something I most definitely do, but I haven't ever consciously considered what it's for. This makes a lot of sense, though. It's also very validating of something that isn't outwardly easy for others to read.
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  5. #45
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I wouldn't be so freaked out by that, because, we still experience the feelings of pity or concern for others. We still internalise the emotive aspect, and acknowledge it, but we have to mentally separate the crucial data from the 'irrelevant details'. If we didn't do this we'd never be able to make decisions. We'd be stuck in the state of feeling sorry for everyone, or being worried about all the possible negative outcomes on individuals, or that people won't like us, or just endlessly regretting the fact that we ended up in this difficult situation in the first place - and all this would just completely paralyse us. IxFPs are naturally inclined to search desperately for win-win situations, but the real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, accept that some negative outcomes are inevitable, and that in many cases, not everyone can win. Learning this is essential for gaining maturity in a IxFP - it's about finding a way to reconcile our natural idealism with realism.
    Hmmm interesting interpretation, I read OA's response in a different way. I can't quite put it into words atm, but I want to note that what I think you're talking about here is generally more INFP so-dom than INFP-other-dom. And this feels more INFP than ISFP, I see the ISFP's in my life as being way less about the Ne possibilities, and therefore a lot less about win-win scenarios. Actually, they remind me that I need to stick by principles on occasion ... a quick example - an ISFP friend opposes the use of plastic disposable cutlery. She will NEVER use it. I on the other hand, although I oppose disposable cutlery in general, will use it on occasion when it is the most expedient and sensible option. So I see her as basically living out some aspects of her Fi values very seriously, when I at times will take into account more options in the moment and optimize. Her resolve sometimes makes me look at my own, which is kind of neat. And I think that works both ways, in that sometimes you do need to adapt to the many variables, and she sees value in that from my end.

    At any rate, I do agree about the foundation of strong principles. It is very hard to explain what it's like to have your primary lens to the world be an ethical / valuing sense. How every experience, how every word heard or spoken, how every interaction, heck even eating breakfast in the morning and the clothes you wear is about how it feels and how it filters to the internal core of valuation. Is this right/wrong ... good/bad ... acceptable/unacceptable and THEN to figure out the whys of that feeling.

    Will expand more later.
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  6. #46
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    With respect to "shifting" or "unstable ground" though, do you admit that it can sometimes appear this way to others because of the complete about face nature of the decision relative to actions leading up to it (i.e., seems to come out of the blue).
    An example would be useful, if one comes to mind.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #47
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That's a great explanation.

    With respect to "shifting" or "unstable ground" though, do you admit that it can sometimes appear this way to others because of the complete about face nature of the decision relative to actions leading up to it (i.e., seems to come out of the blue).
    I imagine it might look like there's no rhyme or reason in it, and that might make others nervous. I think the thing to remember is, that essentially IxFP objective distancing is the same as what TJs do (although, maybe done in reverse order? ). With the TJ version, the rationale is more externally defined and expressed, so it won't look so shakey and unpredictable. But there is a consistency to the IxFP approach, it just might not be immediately apparent to others.

    I think people get rather nervous about those whose core ethics aren't easily perceivable. That can make the 'sudden change' (when in fact there's probably no change at all) in a Fi ethical standpoint seem to driven by less than good intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmmm interesting interpretation, I read OA's response in a different way. I can't quite put it into words atm, but I want to note that what I think you're talking about here is generally more INFP so-dom than INFP-other-dom. And this feels more INFP than ISFP, I see the ISFP's in my life as being way less about the Ne possibilities, and therefore a lot less about win-win scenarios. Actually, they remind me that I need to stick by principles on occasion ... a quick example - an ISFP friend opposes the use of plastic disposable cutlery. She will NEVER use it. I on the other hand, although I oppose disposable cutlery in general, will use it on occasion when it is the most expedient and sensible option. So I see her as basically living out some aspects of her Fi values very seriously, when I at times will take into account more options in the moment and optimize. Her resolve sometimes makes me look at my own, which is kind of neat. And I think that works both ways, in that sometimes you do need to adapt to the many variables, and she sees value in that from my end.

    At any rate, I do agree about the foundation of strong principles. It is very hard to explain what it's like to have your primary lens to the world be an ethical / valuing sense. How every experience, how every word heard or spoken, how every interaction, heck even eating breakfast in the morning and the clothes you wear is about how it feels and how it filters to the internal core of valuation. Is this right/wrong ... good/bad ... acceptable/unacceptable and THEN to figure out the whys of that feeling.

    Will expand more later.
    Yeah, my explanation probably leans more towards the INFP realm, but I think the basic idea still applies: Fi's subjectivity, complexity, passivity and idealism, being reconciled with Te's objectivity, certainty, definitiveness and activeness. Maybe you're right and ISFPs are less likely to be paralysed by choices but they can just as easily have the wary uncertainty. A good ISFP friend of mine is a lot less decisive than I am and worries a lot more when it comes to win-lose or lose-lose situations. I think with ISFPs it's simply that they think through each path one at a time and then when they perceive negatives, they move on to another - and when they've gone through multiple options without finding a win-win, they can start to get rather anxious. And I did emphasise it's a maturity thing for IxFPs. Many adult Fi-doms can develop those skills; in fact, I would say to be healthy one you have to, at least to some degree.

    Maybe OA wasn't necessarily referring to what I was specifically talking about - but I was just comparing it with highlander's points and taking her idea further. If I misrepresented her point, I apologise.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #48
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think you also need to realise that this is done on the foundation of strong principles. It is not the abandonment of empathy and decency, it is about surrendering to a 'greater good' (as much as I dislike the implications that phrase has) and more pressing form of decency. It is not based on shifting, unstable ground, where we just capriciously harden our hearts whenever it suits us. Hell, we may be shutting down our own feelings and preferences just as much.
    This sounds like how a TJ type would act - the "greater good", "more pressing" items, we don't "harden our hearts whenever it suits us".

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  9. #49
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    an ISFP friend opposes the use of plastic disposable cutlery. She will NEVER use it. I on the other hand, although I oppose disposable cutlery in general, will use it on occasion when it is the most expedient and sensible option. So I see her as basically living out some aspects of her Fi values very seriously, when I at times will take into account more options in the moment and optimize. Her resolve sometimes makes me look at my own, which is kind of neat. And I think that works both ways, in that sometimes you do need to adapt to the many variables, and she sees value in that from my end.
    Oh, and I just wanted to say, in this example both your ISFP friend and you are basically attempting a form of emotional distancing and of tempering idealism with realism. She's remaining steadfast to her views and distancing herself from the temptation, because she knows inconvenience sometimes has to be endured for a greater good. OTOH you are attempting to do what is right and are distancing yourself from your own guilt (of not following an absolute stance), because you see that sometimes in life compromise is necessary.

    Note, I'm not saying one choice is better than the other - it's just interesting to point out.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #50
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'd rather not get into specifics but you hit the nail on the head with that bolded sentence. When you're "out", you cease to exist for the IXFP. The judgment has been made. It can be a bit shocking because others don't realize that side is there.
    It's really hard for someone to get to that point with me. I have a feeling it's an air I may give off more than a mentality that is closed. And at that point, it's more protection of emotional feeling than about keeping integrity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, great observation. There is that need to remain emotionally distanced, because you must remain relatively objective and able to make the tough decisions.

    But @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=8936" target="_blank">highlander</a> I wouldn't be so freaked out by that, because, we still experience the feelings of pity or concern for others. We still internalise the emotive aspect, and acknowledge it, but we have to mentally separate the crucial data from the 'irrelevant details'. If we didn't do this we'd never be able to make decisions. We'd be stuck in the state of feeling sorry for everyone, or being worried about all the possible negative outcomes on individuals, or that people won't like us, or just endlessly regretting the fact that we ended up in this difficult situation in the first place - and all this would just completely paralyse us. IxFPs are naturally inclined to search desperately for win-win situations, but the real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, accept that some negative outcomes are inevitable, and that in many cases, not everyone can win. Learning this is essential for gaining maturity in a IxFP - it's about finding a way to reconcile our natural idealism with realism.

    I think you also need to realise that this is done on the foundation of strong principles. It is not the abandonment of empathy and decency, it is about surrendering to a 'greater good' (as much as I dislike the implications that phrase has) and more pressing form of decency. It is not based on shifting, unstable ground, where we just capriciously harden our hearts whenever it suits us. Hell, we may be shutting down our own feelings and preferences just as much.
    Yes, this is emotional protection also. As Jung notes - Fi is like a sensitive plant shrinking back from the object.

    But I'm also referring to resisting the affect of external valuations, often communicated with emotional affect; it's to keep from being swayed from popular ideas that may not represent what is truly significant to the human experience. For feeling to grow in depth, to create & refine an inner guage of value concepts, you have to strip away the external contexts to funnel down into the fundamental concepts of what is important for humans - outside of culture, time, and very specific experiences.

    When swayed, it is with Ne - what shows a connection to some ideal, even if it's just potential, so that you se such a myriad of ways for a value-concept to manifest the flexibility is kept intact. This is where the INFP NOT "door-slamming" in any permanent way is more common than not. It is very hard to kill all potential. it really takes a lot to drain something once full of it. The kind of depression that can plunge you into is rough. So sometimes you have to just let go of potential before you reach that point. It's more of an emotional protection again. And I think this paragraph reiterates what you said - basically, there is not always the win-win or the potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    Just in my experience of being me, nobody is automatically out to begin with, and it's not even that easy to get out. The only catch is that the "out" button might be somewhere you don't expect. Fortunately, it gets more forgiving with maturity.
    I believe this is the shocker, and so much so people believe they cannot recover from it, so they believe themselves "out" forever. But I believe the person is not often "out" so much as they've communicated (perhaps unwittingly) that they are unwilling to accommodate an uncompromising "value" of yours. There has been a violation & it cansnot be forgiven silently. They must make the adjustment now. But of course, they may not know any of this!

    The problem, IMO, is many do not know how much accommodating & adjusting you have been doing. IFPs tend to do this silently, not with the martyr show like many FJs. And they don't know the resentment that has built up in their violations & in your sacrifices - and it goes beyond the personal relationship, but just in LIFE, how you have compromised ideals. And now a violation is a BIG deal, unacceptable, and their behavior indicates they will not change. From the Fi perspective, it almost feels like YOU have been outed.

    For me, the big thing has been communicating better what is important to me, how it needs to be respected/met, what my boundaries are - instead of leaving it all hidden like land mines for people to discover. And I'm not sure why I avoid this communication other than it's extremely difficult to put things into words & not find yourself invalidated.

    And no offense to ISFPs, but I notice this verbal communication is harder for them... and many INFPs only do it well in writing, but at least there is an outlet.

    I think this is why Fi-dom are said to have such a special love for art, poetry, religion - the most difficult things can be said so clearly in these forms that direct communication just cannot allow. It's amazing to me how words themselves can even transform when paired with a melody, a color, an image... the nuances are just really important with difficult to grasp feelings.

    I like these lyrics by the Jesus & Mary Chain (surely a Fi-dom lyricist). They're very simple, but communicate the situation of having to end something once deemed full of life, having to recognize it's dead, and trying to detach yourself and find some way to communicate any of it:

    The Hardest Walk:

    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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