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  1. #31
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Not sure about the attitude of superiority, but I have seen the patronizing and lack of substance. I had an ENFJ boss for awhile, and the level of drama in our group increased by orders of magnitude. Everything became personal, whether good or bad, and we were walking on eggshells most days. To his credit, he patronized in the best sense. He wanted to be our patron, to take care of us, solve all our problems, and make everything OK. This led him to make promises he couldn't keep, and should have known better than to make. Some less experienced coworkers were gullible enough to put real stock in it, and got sorely disappointed in the end. I learned very quickly not to depend on him for anything more than pep talks (and you know how far that goes with an INTJ). He was a real pro at maintaining and expanding his network and keeping all those connections well-oiled, but it never brought the group any concrete benefit, other than to put out some of the fires caused by his own interpersonal wheeling and dealing and overextensions.
    Good grief.

    If I ever I get in a management position, I hope I don't ever become that incompetent. Incompetence and inconsistent follow through truly grate me.

  2. #32
    Yup
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    i know one at my job. great people skills, great at influencing people to do the right things. gets her point across in tactful way, she has an aura of awesomeness and feels like she watches out for everyone. any minor interpersonal problems, she is on it. you are looking down, she is there to brighten your day. the heart and soul of the group.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  3. #33
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    So, enfj's are basically a mystery to me. When I hang around them, especially when they're close to me, there are frequent hurt feelings.

    I have no idea why or what is going on. All I know is I feel like I"m hurting my ENFJ friend by just being myself. It almost feels like, if he can't be of assistance to me 24/7, he just radiates pain or anger or something. I think he also gets pissed when I'm closed up or guarded nearby.

    Idunno, someone tell me things cuz I'm clueless, thanks.
    The "both being leaders, one a trailblazer and one a shepherd" problem you talked about in this thread, I know very well. I have a good ISTP friend and a long time I thought of him as being dumb, insensitive, overbearing and he regulary managed to get me angry or depressed. In my theory there are two great construction sites to the problem:

    1. Low-self esteem of the enfj

    Imagine you were born as the life of the party. All people flock to your banner, you are always the center of attention but even more they respect you and want to be like you. That brings you passively into the difficult position that nobody reflects you and gives you feedback about you as a person. Every person on the world wants to be liked for who they are, not only for what they do. So as a shepherd you can come into the position, where you help everyone around, but wait and wait for someone helping you. Since nobody knows that, you start growing grumpy about it, until the moment when you voice your problems. That moment most people are dazzled, cause they didnt expect that and you refuse to accept help. You are pissed from the fact that nobody helped you before or better: was intrested in you before and that they just now do only that, what you told them to do.

    That way you never feel loved as a genuine being. And you dont get the necessary input on your person, cause you play twisted games with people, who are really intrested you and that way do not learn to work on your self-confidence.

    if you, in addition to that, are a good-looking guy or girl it even becomes harder to build self-confidence. Cause you seldom have the need to. This becomes crystal clear the moment you turn age 30. When woman look for self-confident men and not for baby faces no more. Then all your theatre of tragedy stuff and "I am the unreachable good-looking guy" house falls apart.

    ISTPs on the other hand are born with self-confidence. And they just have to say three words and have already aimed on the weak spot of the enfj. I needed to learn to work on that.

    The intresting thing was, the more my self-confidence grew, the lesser my istp buddy had the need to attack me. And in the end, I even recognized his feelings, they are ultimatively basic even childlike but moral, clear and easy to understand in their essence.

    So the moment I started to open up to people, to be genuinely intrested in them and not just in myself, the moment my self-confidence awakened there were no more hurt feelings for me. Cause I know now who I am, what I can do and what I want and thats all that matters. If I were to meet people today, I wouldnt like, I'd say au revoir and go my own way. I wouldnt sit at the same table and try to change them in my image, like I did in the earlier days.

    2. Lacking intrest in other people of the enfj

    He can be so good at handling people, that it requires like 5% of his brain capacity. The other 95% then are free for thoughts about him as a person. That combined with a good portion of personal 'theatre of tragedy' can lead to the point that due to a mere intrest into the human soul, the enfj starts to think about himself over and over again. And those thoughts go down a downward spiral from good to bad over the years. At the end he will have suicided his own self-confidence.

    To start this process the enfj just needs a preset of bad emotions. You can take the set I mentioned under point 1 for example.

    Solution:

    The only solution is within the enfj himself. He needs to rebuild himself. Tho he may appear on the outside as being self-confident, you have to know about the inside and the thoughts he has about himself. As an attempt to help him, you could start to have a long conversation with him, about himself and get him to talk about how he sees himself. Thats normally not too hard to aquire. Then when he brings negative thoughts about himself, you should depower those by stating facts from reality as counter arguements. If he for example says that he isnt as fun no more like he always was, you can remind him of recent events or parties, where he cracked the funniest jokes. ENFJs forget about the past, almost in an instant.

    The major work tho must be done by himself. He must regain his self-confidence. If you try to tackle that by being very self-confident, he will block you out. Trieing to treat him like a little girl, could help, you tho shouldnt make a joke about it. The moment tho he feels that you care for him, his sense of responsibility should be tickled, telling himself not to be such a pussy.

    I need to stop typing now, my fingers are falling off. But I hope you get your problem solved.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #34
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    This is the thing that's so interesting to me about ExxJs... all of the other types tend to either announce judgment calls after they've reflected and feel certain of them (IxxJs), or only make tentative calls (Ps). ExxJs will put solid judgment calls out there first and then adjust later in response to information. Not that it's bad - that cognitive combination also makes them the most effective people, whether in terms of helping people (ExFJ) or facilitating systems (ExTJ).

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee
    We're both leaders, but of different kinds. Its almost like his life is all about other people, making sure others grow and succeed, and somehow amidst this he grows and succeeds himself.

    I on the other hand, only grow myself and any help given to others is usually draining for me, and others choose to follow in my wake.
    Yeah. It can be hard to be a people-helping-person and then try to figure out what to do with people that just do their own thing. It's that "my normal approach is useless here" realization.

  5. #35
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    you seriously are blaming the chinese for speaking chinese coz you suck at chinese?
    I can't speak for other INTJs, but I don't blame "chinese for speaking chinese"... I do, however, blame them for a lot of other things.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #36
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This is the thing that's so interesting to me about ExxJs... all of the other types tend to either announce judgment calls after they've reflected and feel certain of them (IxxJs), or only make tentative calls (Ps). ExxJs will put solid judgment calls out there first and then adjust later in response to information. Not that it's bad - that cognitive combination also makes them the most effective people, whether in terms of helping people (ExFJ).
    I am totally guilty of this. I will draw conclusions of people at first but then look for information that proves or disproves the conclusions. My conclusions are usually fairly accurate but the new information almost always adds several nuances putting the conclusion into a whole new light (more negative or more positive). The conclusion solidifies if a pattern is established (but is subject to change depending on context and change in time/relevant info but previous conclusions are stored as potential baselines).

    From my perspective, people tend to be "creatures of habit" but have a reactive streak (dependent on the degree of change or stress in their life and then their baseline of behavior can sometimes change permanently).

    Dang my thought process sounds so calculated.

    I have noticed that with Si users, the conclusions can stick like glue in their memory banks though. It's like, "no, I used to like raisins when I was 5.... now I am 23".

  7. #37
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I am totally guilty of this. I will draw conclusions of people at first but then look for information that proves or disproves the conclusions. My conclusions are usually fairly accurate but the new information almost always adds several nuances putting the conclusion into a whole new light (more negative or more positive). The conclusion solidifies if a pattern is established (but is subject to change depending on context and change in time/relevant info but previous conclusions are stored as potential baselines).

    From my perspective, people tend to be "creatures of habit" but have a reactive streak (dependent on the degree of change or stress in their life and then their baseline of behavior can sometimes change permanently).

    Dang my thought process sounds so calculated.

    I have noticed that with Si users, the conclusions can stick like glue in their memory banks though. It's like, "no, I used to like raisins when I was 5.... now I am 23".


    Well, and I think because you guys are so practiced at it, you really are typically accurate enough, even if not 100% spot on. What I notice is that ExxJs might not pick up on all the nuances, because it's an incredibly rapid call, but they often make a close enough conclusion to be functionally right and move forward, which I figure is what Je is all about. One interesting thing that I've noticed with Fs is that ExFJs seem to judge behavior more than internal character, so there seems to be a little more flexibility regarding character, whereas FPs tend to ultimately be harsher judges of character but give more leniency to behavior. I'd say given the ESxJs vs ENxJs I've known, it seems like ESxJs have longer-sticking conclusions and associations, and they're harder to change (lol, "I used to like raisins when I was 5"), but ENxJs seem to use judgments more harshly and are quicker to rule people out based upon them.

    It is a little bit of a struggle, sometimes, admittedly, especially if things get off on the wrong foot and are not really fairly representative of the usual, so an ExxJ may be left with the idea of the person being like that when it's only a very small facet of their personality or more of an environmental reaction, like you mentioned, Glycerine. But on the bright side, at least with ExFJs, there is the motivator of harmony, so generally even if the first judgment was a little hard, it'll come around. That said, I've also had my ESFJ mom and ENFJ friend call people on being selfish or irresponsible long before I saw it, which has saved me grief for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    I had an ENFJ boss for awhile, and the level of drama in our group increased by orders of magnitude. Everything became personal, whether good or bad, and we were walking on eggshells most days. To his credit, he patronized in the best sense. He wanted to be our patron, to take care of us, solve all our problems, and make everything OK. This led him to make promises he couldn't keep, and should have known better than to make. Some less experienced coworkers were gullible enough to put real stock in it, and got sorely disappointed in the end. I learned very quickly not to depend on him for anything more than pep talks (and you know how far that goes with an INTJ). He was a real pro at maintaining and expanding his network and keeping all those connections well-oiled, but it never brought the group any concrete benefit, other than to put out some of the fires caused by his own interpersonal wheeling and dealing and overextensions.
    This is really interesting. I have a ENFJ 3w4 friend who I've seen in several leadership positions, including one major one, and this is not at all like her. I assume this ENFJ boss was maybe a 2w3? The ENFJ 3w4 I know is definitely a more distanced leader, heavier on Je than F, if that makes sense. She was actually an excellent leader in the sense of the mechanics of it - getting everything done and keeping drama to a minimum. The problem I had with her leadership was rather in her personally choosing the direction the group should go in and then rapidly shutting down any voices who had other ideas, and being cold to members she personally disliked. She got her most significant/highest position by appointment because someone else had to step down mid-term, not by conventional vote, so I found that behavior somewhat inappropriate and selfish, as she was not selected via democratic process - plus it was a social group mainly focused on learning and enjoyment. It was just a lot of unnecessary coldness for little gain. I think she would make an excellent private business executive, or an excellent behavioral-change program leader - some kind of people-interactive position with focused goals where she could use cold Fe as a tool.

    But that is her individually, not all ENFJs.

  8. #38
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    - Put some of my two cents in the quoted responses, but I do find it a bit odd that he ends up doing more bad than good when he attempts to help. Examples regarding what he is trying to help with and what he is doing to help?
    I'd vote one of two things: either he is in a wonky and bad place and can't get himself sorted enough properly assess and to be useful (or to know there's nothing to assess and help), or perhaps he is in tune with issues that you are not so in tune with and the flow gets wonky because of the two warring leader attitudes (or just wonky because he's bad at this).
    Provided I'm not sure because I'm far past the point of actively over-extending myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    The difference between us is astounding. We're both leaders, but of different kinds. Its almost like his life is all about other people, making sure others grow and succeed, and somehow amidst this he grows and succeeds himself.
    Yea. You just nailed ENFJ in a sentence in my book.
    I've described this as problem-solving and assessing others and then taking the bits that relate and mesh with ourselves to build and fix our core. Puzzle-piecing.
    Also, I am on a page for ENFJs on facebook and a lot of them struggle with over-extending themselves and the harsh reality of, well, people. I'd venture to say we grow a hard shell, bitterness, a shorter fuse, and distance all while we are gradually learning to not be so up-everyone's-ass about helping them, even the ones who ask us. He might be in that shitty transitional stage where he still wants to be up your ass about being helpful, but is frustrated with the whole ordeal from overall experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    1. Low-self esteem of the enfj

    Imagine you were born as the life of the party. All people flock to your banner, you are always the center of attention but even more they respect you and want to be like you. That brings you passively into the difficult position that nobody reflects you and gives you feedback about you as a person. Every person on the world wants to be liked for who they are, not only for what they do. So as a shepherd you can come into the position, where you help everyone around, but wait and wait for someone helping you. Since nobody knows that, you start growing grumpy about it, until the moment when you voice your problems. That moment most people are dazzled, cause they didnt expect that and you refuse to accept help. You are pissed from the fact that nobody helped you before or better: was intrested in you before and that they just now do only that, what you told them to do.
    Damnit, you. Bolded hurts my squishy feels center with truth.
    Solution:

    The only solution is within the enfj himself. He needs to rebuild himself. Tho he may appear on the outside as being self-confident, you have to know about the inside and the thoughts he has about himself. As an attempt to help him, you could start to have a long conversation with him, about himself and get him to talk about how he sees himself. Thats normally not too hard to aquire. Then when he brings negative thoughts about himself, you should depower those by stating facts from reality as counter arguements. If he for example says that he isnt as fun no more like he always was, you can remind him of recent events or parties, where he cracked the funniest jokes. ENFJs forget about the past, almost in an instant.

    The major work tho must be done by himself. He must regain his self-confidence. If you try to tackle that by being very self-confident, he will block you out. Trieing to treat him like a little girl, could help, you tho shouldnt make a joke about it. The moment tho he feels that you care for him, his sense of responsibility should be tickled, telling himself not to be such a pussy.
    Agreed.


    ENFJs can be difficult people to help along because we don't take criticism well. At least in my world, it's like we can clam up so fast we'll cut your pretty little fingers off.. and for very little reason at all. My INTJ bestie is the only one who really whips me into shape sometimes because I respect him as a person and where his head is at, and he always approaches me in a way that says 'quit your bitchin, you idiot' while also somehow acknowledging that I am not at all an idiot and therefore I should quit said bitching. --- & at the same time we both come to this mutual agreement that I have to do things my way even if it is a slow and arduous pace that involves all of the emotions and half of the drama.
    I'd say we're the worst advice-listeners, not at all helped by the fact that we puzzle-piece from others and the majority of other people are terrible advice-listeners as well.
    Last edited by Unkindloving; 08-11-2013 at 09:31 AM. Reason: (had to change listeners to "advice-listeners")
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  9. #39
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I was joking.
    Oh

  10. #40
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    The difference between us is astounding. We're both leaders, but of different kinds. Its almost like his life is all about other people, making sure others grow and succeed, and somehow amidst this he grows and succeeds himself.

    I on the other hand, only grow myself and any help given to others is usually draining for me, and others choose to follow in my wake. He's sort of the shepard, and I'm the trailblazer. For him to give me technical advice is usually... wrong. Otherwise his political advice is very useful.
    I agree with most all of this, especially how he grows when others grow. It's a very nice garden type mentality going on with them. I have found, over time, that some of this gardening rubs off on me. I enjoy some mentoring of others where it use to just exhaust me.

    I can understand the bad taste ENFJ's can leave in peoples' mouth though. They can manipulate like no other, they can be narcissistic, butthurt by very little and can be supremely offended when you don't take their advice. When they care about you, they really do only have the best of intentions. Using a little tact with the refusal works wonders. Some cuddling, hugs and kisses, real interest in their work or whatever they are doing in life and just being kind and courteous with them makes life very easy. And cookies. They really love cookies.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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