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  1. #1
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Default The One Where an Inferior Fi User Groundlessly Speculates about FPs...

    The INF Mannerisms on Video thread got me thinking first about INFPs I've known, and then more broadly about how FPs operate. For the past few years, I've been trying to work on being more open/aware/expressive of/whatever is the appropriate verbiage my own introverted feeling. I've been blessed to have FPs (and even an INTJ or two) in my life willing and patient enough to help me develop my understanding. This post was originally supposed to just be about INFPs, but I'm curious now if there's any accuracy to my observations of them and other FP types I mention. I'm eager to learn, so feel free to demolish any of what follows if it's not true to your own experience.

    ______________


    I've always found the stillness of INFPs to be interesting. Everything except their eyes. It's as if the physical gestures that might accompany their words are carried out in their imagination, and what you see get externally are the residual emotions of the not-there movements.

    Thinking about how feeling is related through mannerisms creates an interesting comparison when you think about INFPs relative to their FP near cousins. Tertiary Si in INFPs not only points to the stillness I just described, but it's larger consequence, which is their ability to foster a certain emotional atmosphere around their internal state. This is distinct from ISFPs who seem to be more about personal embodiment of those states. If an ISFP exhibits their emotions, then an INFP exudes them.

    The INFPs talent for emotional atmosphere is to an extent shared by ENFPs, but approached inversely. An INFP desires to convey something genuine to their internal state, their true self, their being as it came to be at that moment, and leverages Ne to guide the listener's own sense of empathy. A lot goes unsaid, allowing the listener to infer what ought to be in those gaps based on their own experiences and feelings, and in investing that emotional equity the listener suddenly finds themselves with a stake in whatever comes next. A connection has been made that makes a shared experience out of the INFPs personal, subjective state. Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate. More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them. The ability to create a mood is more about bringing something forth than putting something forward, enabling the discovery of infinite and hereto unknown points of convergence.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #2
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    I read this several hours ago and have been thinking about it but despite this have not been able to find any flaws or any areas which could be corrected. I think you have good insights here.

  3. #3
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Accurate
    I N V I C T U S

  4. #4
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've always found the stillness of INFPs to be interesting. Everything except their eyes. It's as if the physical gestures that might accompany their words are carried out in their imagination, and what you see get externally are the residual emotions of the not-there movements.

    Thinking about how feeling is related through mannerisms creates an interesting comparison when you think about INFPs relative to their FP near cousins. Tertiary Si in INFPs not only points to the stillness I just described, but it's larger consequence, which is their ability to foster a certain emotional atmosphere around their internal state. This is distinct from ISFPs who seem to be more about personal embodiment of those states. If an ISFP exhibits their emotions, then an INFP exudes them..The INFPs talent for emotional atmosphere is to an extent shared by ENFPs, but approached inversely. An INFP desires to convey something genuine to their internal state, their true self, their being as it came to be at that moment, and leverages Ne to guide the listener's own sense of empathy. A lot goes unsaid, allowing the listener to infer what ought to be in those gaps based on their own experiences and feelings, and in investing that emotional equity the listener suddenly finds themselves with a stake in whatever comes next. A connection has been made that makes a shared experience out of the INFPs personal, subjective state.
    The only INFP I know very well does this. Interestingly, he uses it as a tool against people he dislikes....they express something and instead of responding or adapting to them, he instead represses the environment...then withdraws as though there is something wrong with them but by his inactivity, he pulls the atmosphere with him. He does it selectively to people he finds threatening, and presents everyone else with a facade of the "nice guy" in a 9 sort of way. It strikes me as a "mean girl" sort of catty thing to do, a movement of emotional exclusion meant to isolate.

    He does this to me from time to time, as I was hired to be his peer, and it first it was hurtful. To be blunt, because I am not very nice, I now retaliate with a heaping does of crappy tert Te and just one-up him on whatever task we have to share and by allowing other to see his (numerous, endless) fuck-ups and incompetence.

    I found it interesting that we attack one another with our tert functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate. More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them. The ability to create a mood is more about bringing something forth than putting something forward, enabling the discovery of infinite and hereto unknown points of convergence.
    This will sound strange...but we are actually dumping out our own core, like a template, vomiting out our soul, and allowing it to wrap around the other person and mold to them. We are not leaving the space open so they can fill it-we are filling it with ourselves, our soul, our essence, which we adapt to mold around them, to fit thier needs, to fill out their template. We engulf them, morph around them, then reabsorb what we just learned. It is nothing to do with how we feel and everything to do with what we, quite lieterally, feel they feel.

    ^^This is what it feels like. Biologically, I suspect we have overactive mirror nuerons that activate to mimic the perceived emo state of the other. This requires a huge amount of energy, as we are trying to experience so much external emotion, that we ignore what our own real emotions are. This will sound wierd, but overtime, we build templates of how people should feel-really their above mold, avaraged over time. When the individual differs from the mold...basically our filling of the middle space between us is too different, is signifies that there is something angstful for the person and we seek to soothe them to return them to the mold that we know is thier "norm".

    (i say we, really meaning me but I have seen other enfps express some of the same sentiments)

  5. #5
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This will sound strange...but we are actually dumping out our own core, like a template, vomiting out our soul, and allowing it to wrap around the other person and mold to them. We are not leaving the space open so they can fill it-we are filling it with ourselves, our soul, our essence, which we adapt to mold around them, to fit thier needs, to fill out their template. We engulf them, morph around them, then reabsorb what we just learned. It is nothing to do with how we feel and everything to do with what we, quite lieterally, feel they feel.

    ^^This is what it feels like. Biologically, I suspect we have overactive mirror nuerons that activate to mimic the perceived emo state of the other. This requires a huge amount of energy, as we are trying to experience so much external emotion, that we ignore what our own real emotions are. This will sound wierd, but overtime, we build templates of how people should feel-really their above mold, avaraged over time. When the individual differs from the mold...basically our filling of the middle space between us is too different, is signifies that there is something angstful for the person and we seek to soothe them to return them to the mold that we know is thier "norm".

    (i say we, really meaning me but I have seen other enfps express some of the same sentiments)
    Not sure if I entirely agree with you here. I do relate to wanting to pour out my own feelings, and I always am trying to gauge what others are thinking and feeling, but I feel like my ultimate goal is that Fi-Fi connection that @Wind-Up Rex talked about. Since most of my feelings are usually in the works and open to new input, I long for those moments where I can openly discuss with someone else, listening to their reasoning and point of view. In those times, I find I am able to find new insight and most often am changed by them in some way. I think it's my perceiving preference that is so enthusiastic about the wealth of possible angles and experiences around any set of feelings that makes me crave hearing others' and sharing mine to keep them evolving.

    Where I truly envy my INFP friend is her ability to remain calm and give that space a little extra room to breathe. The "radiating" Wind-Up mentioned is spot on. This creates both a safe and relaxed atmosphere within which we can share our feelings. I tend to get excited about the prospect of having a wonderful and enlightening Fi moment that I can rush the interactions, speak rashly, or otherwise get kind of too worked up about it. I often leave situations thinking that they could have been much more if I would have just let them be.

    Great topic, Wind-Up Rex! Thanks for opening that up and sharing your thoughts. You seem to have a good handle on this.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #6
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I read this several hours ago and have been thinking about it but despite this have not been able to find any flaws or any areas which could be corrected. I think you have good insights here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Accurate
    Nice.

    I think what's hard for me is that I feel like I get Fi at this sorta conceptual level, but it's a struggle to make sense of it on a more visceral one. I don't want to be anyone but who I am, but I recognize that the skill set that you possess as Fi-doms and Fi-aux in terms of being able to understand emotional needs--your own and those of others--is absolutely invaluable. Especially in relationships.

    I guess in a way I was hoping that I missed the mark in terms of my understanding, because now there's desire and apparently comprehension wanting for something that will lead to actual integration. It's genuinely disheartening. I really felt for you @Standuble when you were talking about your occasional Te-fueled dreams of financial empire. I deal with something similar in this intense desire to be really and genuinely known by someone, to be naked in that way, but everything about me is set-up to point me away from that exact kind of vulnerability.




    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This will sound strange...but we are actually dumping out our own core, like a template, vomiting out our soul, and allowing it to wrap around the other person and mold to them. We are not leaving the space open so they can fill it-we are filling it with ourselves, our soul, our essence, which we adapt to mold around them, to fit thier needs, to fill out their template. We engulf them, morph around them, then reabsorb what we just learned. It is nothing to do with how we feel and everything to do with what we, quite lieterally, feel they feel.
    How do you do this?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  7. #7
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I've always found the stillness of INFPs to be interesting. Everything except their eyes. It's as if the physical gestures that might accompany their words are carried out in their imagination, and what you see get externally are the residual emotions of the not-there movements.
    I gesture frenetically when animated. I'm just not animated all the time. I also laugh maniacally with my whole body, but that's maybe another topic.

    Thinking about how feeling is related through mannerisms creates an interesting comparison when you think about INFPs relative to their FP near cousins. Tertiary Si in INFPs not only points to the stillness I just described, but it's larger consequence, which is their ability to foster a certain emotional atmosphere around their internal state. This is distinct from ISFPs who seem to be more about personal embodiment of those states. If an ISFP exhibits their emotions, then an INFP exudes them.
    My e9 ISFP step-dad has a more calm presence than me, but also exhibits more general "pleasantness" or "gentleness", especially with strangers. I'm more aloof, but also more fiery when I do express - much more hot & cold, less "even", all or nothing. Someone once said there's something a tad "violent" about me. I just thought it was 4 vs 9. I would say that INFPs generally feel "heavier" than ISFPs, based on the ones I know, but 9s in general have the more still vibe. Or maybe it's just so pronounced in me it looks plain old "cold". I positively send female phobic 6s into a panic because they cannot read me & sometimes think I might cause problems. People don't seem to read well whatever is "exuded".

    The INFPs talent for emotional atmosphere is to an extent shared by ENFPs, but approached inversely. An INFP desires to convey something genuine to their internal state, their true self, their being as it came to be at that moment, and leverages Ne to guide the listener's own sense of empathy. A lot goes unsaid, allowing the listener to infer what ought to be in those gaps based on their own experiences and feelings, and in investing that emotional equity the listener suddenly finds themselves with a stake in whatever comes next. A connection has been made that makes a shared experience out of the INFPs personal, subjective state.
    This might happen, but I find that "filling in" others do to often be inaccurate projection. I don't really seek to affect the emotional atmosphere at all. I understand this stifling air that Jung spoke of, but it's not consciously done, not by me anyway. If I walk past someone & don't acknowledge them, I literally don't see them. People take a lot personally from me that is completely just due to absentmindedness. In day to day life, I have very little motive outside of "maintain my own sanity". I 100% own my moods in the sense that they can be very detached from whatever is immediately going on. This means an aloof presence around someone is no intentional punishment towards them. Although people frequently take this personally.

    But it is true of any introvert that they resist being affected by the external, and passively may force it to adapt to them by not adapting. Whereas extroverts are more affected & adapt more readily. I think that's really all that's happening with INFPs.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #8
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them.
    This is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate.
    This I didn't really understand what you meant. Maybe you mean that the point of using Ne is Ne? No, the point, at least for me, is authenticity, it is to arrive to the depth. To connect. Fi?

    I dont know how this would differ from INFPs, but for me the centre of gravity of the feelings is between me and the other person (maybe this is connected to Sx). Maybe for INFPs the feelings' centre of gravity is in themselves...and they are less interested in communicating their feelings and being understood? I don't know.. Like, I feel things but I also feel the need to communicate them, and to be understood, and to understand, and to create a one-on-one bond with the person i'm talking to. It's frustrating when I feel things, but I can't "do" anything with them, merge..

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    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I gesture frenetically when animated.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Someone once said there's something a tad "violent" about me.
    ah ah! it was you after all... the violent INFP....!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This means an aloof presence around someone is no intentional punishment towards them. Although people frequently take this personally.

    But it is true of any introvert that they resist being affected by the external, and passively may force it to adapt to them by not adapting. Whereas extroverts are more affected & adapt more readily. I think that's really all that's happening with INFPs.
    i don't know if that's an introvert thing...or just a fi thing or what that it is but i feel that way too...maybe at some point in my life i cared more but i honestly just walk around completely unaffected..i just simply don't care what others think...i don't feel responsible for them and their judgements of me are meaningless...i mean...random people that just happen to be sharing the same physical space as me.

    i hope this doesn't mean i'm becoming defective in some way...

    but really what's really going on is i'm just lost in thought...it has nothing to do with anything else.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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