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  1. #31
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I see. You're starting to get an awareness of your own Fi, only to discover it's more interesting/valuable/complex/elusive than you first thought? I feel more like that about Te, lately. I've spent a lifetime being somewhat judgemental of Te qualities, and over the last few years I've come to see that it's more than I expected (if that makes sense). I've learned to appreciate it so much more and am learning to use it more effectively. It's become a bit of fascination for me to access those parts of myself.
    Could you expand on this a bit? What "Te qualities" did you find you rejected? What do you mean by more than you expect? What fascinates you about Te?

    Speaking from the other side, it seems like there's very little to Te. It's about as down home and basic as you can get, and is frankly without purpose without some sorta Fi heft behind it. I just view it to be a tool for evaluating an object and that objects relationship to other things. The facts either support your evaluation, or they do not. No more, no less.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #32
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Poor thing. In your case I think the Fi is trolling you pretty bad with your Fi insisting that its needs and views are important even though objectively and rationally they are not.
    But isn't that the whole zen of the thing? From what I've gathered so far, if you only pay attention to the things that matter "objectively", then those more personal, subjective concerns start to creep up on you and rot you from the inside. Or just cause you to implode. I've banged into that particular wall enough times to not discount those needs, nor the value of attending to them.

    If you wish to integrate I would suggest you either try asking which feedback Fi suggests fits in with everything else inside your inner world (I lack the ability to explain but the sentiment is shared throughout its network) by making logical determinations or ignore that area entirely and keep it subservient to Te.
    I think what I struggle with is that I don't really have much of an inner world. There's no grid or network, so this actually made me chuckle a little bit. It's the equivalent of telling some Somali that if they're having internet issues all they need to do is check their modem and get back to you, then not understanding the blank stare you get in reply. Seriously, though, it takes lengthy meditation to have any sense of my internal state, or in some instances someone patient enough to ask me the right questions to help me recognize that I actually do feel such and such a way.

    That said, I do have something of a personal code. It's not something I could articulate, but it's expressed consistently in my actions (or I make an effort to do as much). I can recognize when something is Right or is Wrong, but where I struggle is with determining that something is Right for Me. Does that make sense? I know intellectually that that is an important thing to be able to answer (and the consequences of failing to do so), but it's such a gradual, awkward thing to be able to do so.

    /end baby Fi whine lol

    (The bolded was really beautifully stated in any case, btw.)
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Could you expand on this a bit? What "Te qualities" did you find you rejected? What do you mean by more than you expect? What fascinates you about Te?
    I rejected (what I perceived as) its: aggression, abruptness, insensitivity, black and white view of the world, absurdly high expectations, refusal to admit exceptions to the rule, pushiness, lack of sympathy - how demanding, judgemental, prejudiced, bigoted, presumptive, dictatorial and unforgiving it can be. Now I'm not saying this is fair depiction of Te but that's how it came across to me, in part because my ESTJ sister has displayed all these unhealthy sides of Te in the past. Actually, my extended family is one big Te-fest.

    It was more than I expected because I discovered all sorts of little things it did that I never really recognised or valued. I've just been getting different vibes from TJs than I used to. A lot of things fascinate me about Te but most are vague impressions that are hard to describe. One of the main things that fascinated me is its ability to cut through the BS and make worryingly or stressfully complex situations/ideas/questions into straight-forward answers. I used to think that there was no downside to complexity but Fi's inclination for this (especially Fi+Ne) can be so overwhelming. It wants to make everything so endlessly complicated that it renders the world into a place without a single solid piece of ground to stand on. Te's ability to sort through it all and say, "it's just ____"; to summarise so succinctly, to find meaningful truth and clarity without the if, buts and maybes can be so reassuring, so unburdening, so enlightening. I'm slowly learning how to do that. It's really helped me to stop getting buried in the complexities and just find something that true and simple in all the mess of life - even if it's just in a joke or silly comment. I can also see how much that can that quality can be supportive and helpful to others. It amazes me that a function I previous found so cold and heartless can be the bringer of such kindness; seeing how a TJ can so insightfully, sensitively and conscientiously help solve the problems of others in ways a Feeler would struggle to.

    I guess I've just discovered the underlying beauty and elegance that exists behind the directness - and I always find it intriguing to discover new layers and unexpected positive aspects to familiar things.

    Speaking from the other side, it seems like there's very little to Te. It's about as down home and basic as you can get, and is frankly without purpose without some sorta Fi heft behind it. I just view it to be a tool for evaluating an object and that objects relationship to other things. The facts either support your evaluation, or they do not. No more, no less.
    This is what I used to think, but I think it's a limited view of it. It's like how Se is described as just being about the literal physical world; just seeing things as they are; living in the moment. The most enlightening and revealing description I read about Se was that it's "contextual". It's not about 'the concrete' or 'the moment'; it's about seeing things/ideas/experiences as specific to a time/place/circumstance/plane of existence/whatever. It's about keeping things separate and uninfluenced by extraneous data so that you view them with clarity, purity and an attuned awareness. So there is a sort of brilliance and complexity behind the relative straight-forward aspect of it. Same goes for Te.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #34
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    What an interesting thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    where I struggle is with determining that something is Right for Me. Does that make sense? I know intellectually that that is an important thing to be able to answer (and the consequences of failing to do so), but it's such a gradual, awkward thing to be able to do so.)
    I actually very much relate to this in terms of Si failure... I know what feels right but I have a very hard time determining what things I ought to choose to create that rightness - like I have a hard time identifying what things have whatever corresponds to me in them, if that makes sense. I know the connection that I am looking for but I struggle to know what other things have that inside of them. It's sort of a crapshoot half the time.

    It's hard to express how I know that something is right for me or not. It's a sense of whether it makes me "glow" inside, whether it stokes the inner fire of passion and whether it makes me feel whole and healthy and good. It's very unconscious, and very visceral. It's the feeling of NeFi ecstasy when looking at vast natural scapes, like the ocean or the mountains, or when I am in yoga and I feel simultaneously completely in my body and like it has melted away into the earth. It's like my entire being has just become pure energy and its energy pulses in tune with my energy. Have you ever read A Ring of Endless Light? There is a lot of prose and poetry in that book which feels very Fi to me... (though a lot of what I think is Ni, too)...

    No one could miss the joy in Grandfather's voice as he said those alleluias, and his face was so alive, so alight, that I didn't hear what he was saying next. [...] It was obvious he was [...] rejecting their plastic grass and their plastic dirt. He was emphasizing the fact that Commander Rodney's death was real, but this reality was less terrible than plastic pretense. [...]

    I thought of Ynid [a dolphin] and her grief at her dead baby, and I asked Basil [a dolphin], Is Ynid's baby all right? (Is Commander Rodney all right? Is my grandfather all right? Am I? Is it all right?)

    Basil pulled himself up out of the water and a series of sounds came from him, singing sounds.

    And what it reminded me of was Grandfather standing by Commander Rodney's open grave and saying those terrible words and then crying out, full of joy, Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

    And then Basil was gone, flashing through sea and sky, to disappear at the horizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate. More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them. The ability to create a mood is more about bringing something forth than putting something forward, enabling the discovery of infinite and hereto unknown points of convergence.
    Yeah... it's like... I dunno, I don't so much do the outpouring of myself that others have talked about. I do it when those I love are very distressed, or hurt, and that's the best way I know to create comfort, but I don't really do it on an everyday basis. Even then it feels more like just throwing all my attention onto them and being completely open to responding to them, more of a complete dissolution of self to become whatever they need than an outpouring of self (though it is very "me").

    I feel like I try to pull others out of themselves... I don't think about my own energy around other people much. I mostly think about theirs, and minor changes in theirs, and how to adjust myself to get the best response. I want to get them to "glow", too, and it's like trying to figure out the keys to fit the locks to open that up within them. And I guess there's some inherent assumption (I haven't ever thought about this before!) that when both of us are "glowing", we'll get along just fine... because we are all connected and the same in some fundamental ways, and happiness and wholeness for you is happiness and wholeness for me.

  5. #35
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What an interesting thread



    I actually very much relate to this in terms of Si failure... I know what feels right but I have a very hard time determining what things I ought to choose to create that rightness - like I have a hard time identifying what things have whatever corresponds to me in them, if that makes sense. I know the connection that I am looking for but I struggle to know what other things have that inside of them. It's sort of a crapshoot half the time.

    It's hard to express how I know that something is right for me or not. It's a sense of whether it makes me "glow" inside, whether it stokes the inner fire of passion and whether it makes me feel whole and healthy and good. It's very unconscious, and very visceral. It's the feeling of NeFi ecstasy when looking at vast natural scapes, like the ocean or the mountains, or when I am in yoga and I feel simultaneously completely in my body and like it has melted away into the earth. It's like my entire being has just become pure energy and its energy pulses in tune with my energy. Have you ever read A Ring of Endless Light? There is a lot of prose and poetry in that book which feels very Fi to me... (though a lot of what I think is Ni, too)...
    \
    Interesting indeed! I'm trying to accommodate for my weak Si these days, and I like the way you put it. I'm familiar with that NeFi ecstasy feeling, and that might be a nice way to approach the idea of "listening to my needs" and doing what's best for me in any given situation without having to rely on my less than stellar Si. Some others suggested working with your strongest functions rather than working on strengthening weak functions, and that helps me see how that actually might work in an applied way. Thanks for the insight
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    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #36
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I rejected (what I perceived as) its: aggression, abruptness, insensitivity, black and white view of the world, absurdly high expectations, refusal to admit exceptions to the rule, pushiness, lack of sympathy - how demanding, judgemental, prejudiced, bigoted, presumptive, dictatorial and unforgiving it can be. Now I'm not saying this is fair depiction of Te but that's how it came across to me, in part because my ESTJ sister has displayed all these unhealthy sides of Te in the past. Actually, my extended family is one big Te-fest.

    It was more than I expected because I discovered all sorts of little things it did that I never really recognised or valued. I've just been getting different vibes from TJs than I used to. A lot of things fascinate me about Te but most are vague impressions that are hard to describe. One of the main things that fascinated me is its ability to cut through the BS and make worryingly or stressfully complex situations/ideas/questions into straight-forward answers. I used to think that there was no downside to complexity but Fi's inclination for this (especially Fi+Ne) can be so overwhelming. It wants to make everything so endlessly complicated that it renders the world into a place without a single solid piece of ground to stand on. Te's ability to sort through it all and say, "it's just ____"; to summarise so succinctly, to find meaningful truth and clarity without the if, buts and maybes can be so reassuring, so unburdening, so enlightening. I'm slowly learning how to do that. It's really helped me to stop getting buried in the complexities and just find something that true and simple in all the mess of life - even if it's just in a joke or silly comment. I can also see how much that can that quality can be supportive and helpful to others. It amazes me that a function I previous found so cold and heartless can be the bringer of such kindness; seeing how a TJ can so insightfully, sensitively and conscientiously help solve the problems of others in ways a Feeler would struggle to.

    I guess I've just discovered the underlying beauty and elegance that exists behind the directness - and I always find it intriguing to discover new layers and unexpected positive aspects to familiar things.


    This is what I used to think, but I think it's a limited view of it. It's like how Se is described as just being about the literal physical world; just seeing things as they are; living in the moment. The most enlightening and revealing description I read about Se was that it's "contextual". It's not about 'the concrete' or 'the moment'; it's about seeing things/ideas/experiences as specific to a time/place/circumstance/plane of existence/whatever. It's about keeping things separate and uninfluenced by extraneous data so that you view them with clarity, purity and an attuned awareness. So there is a sort of brilliance and complexity behind the relative straight-forward aspect of it. Same goes for Te.
    I appreciate you sharing this as it truly gave me a moment outside myself. It strikes me that "aspirational" is as appropriate of a name as "inferior" for a types fourth function in that there's a sort of distance, and a richness unique to things just out of reach projected into it. An objective assessment of Te probably lies between your own very poetic interpretation of it and my own rather matter of fact one.

    I kept thinking, though, that this is the spark that probably makes things work between couples where one has the other's inferior function as their dominant one and vice versa. That there's a sort of built-in awe for someone who can look under the bed and tell you it's free of boogie men.



    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What an interesting thread
    If there's a more thoughtful and compassionate bunch to whom I could have thrown myself to the wolves, I'm hard pressed to think of 'em.

    Yeah... it's like... I dunno, I don't so much do the outpouring of myself that others have talked about. I do it when those I love are very distressed, or hurt, and that's the best way I know to create comfort, but I don't really do it on an everyday basis. Even then it feels more like just throwing all my attention onto them and being completely open to responding to them, more of a complete dissolution of self to become whatever they need than an outpouring of self (though it is very "me").

    I feel like I try to pull others out of themselves... I don't think about my own energy around other people much. I mostly think about theirs, and minor changes in theirs, and how to adjust myself to get the best response. I want to get them to "glow", too, and it's like trying to figure out the keys to fit the locks to open that up within them. And I guess there's some inherent assumption (I haven't ever thought about this before!) that when both of us are "glowing", we'll get along just fine... because we are all connected and the same in some fundamental ways, and happiness and wholeness for you is happiness and wholeness for me.

    So really it just comes down to taking delight in others in a way that's mutually authentic?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  7. #37
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I kept thinking, though, that this is the spark that probably makes things work between couples where one has the other's inferior function as their dominant one and vice versa. That there's a sort of built-in awe for someone who can look under the bed and tell you it's free of boogie men.
    Yes! I feel this with my Si-dom. It was actually a curious experience to eventually figure out that he was an ISFJ, because when I first went out with him, I thought maybe he was an ENFP like me. He has a fluidity with information that is very much akin to my own, though his is all world-details that I tend to just assume into the patterns instead of extracting them. But it's like you discover that your inferior is inherent in your own processing - you just didn't recognize it because you were so focused on the other thing. You initially think that it is contrary to the way you see things, but you realize that it supports your worldview, even enriches it, because it solves a lot of the struggles you've had with your dominant. Plus with dominant-inferior pairings, an interesting arrangement of functions is set up such that:

    ISFJ - Si Fe Ti Ne
    ENFP - Ne Fi Te Si

    1. Si evokes Fi in ENFP ; Ne evokes Fe in ISFJ
    2. F is in 2nd helper/relating position for both
    3. T is in 3rd relief/puer position for both
    4. Both are Perceiving dominant

    So there really is a lot of overlap in thinking, even though on the surface they seem very different. It's one of the reasons I'm not big on relationship-type prescription. Given any two types there are typically quite a lot of mutual "points" that they can relate at. I suspect it's typically more a matter of whether the two people are using those points to similar endgoals (ie, similar values) and whether there is inherent chemistry.

    If there's a more thoughtful and compassionate bunch to whom I could have thrown myself to the wolves, I'm hard pressed to think of 'em.


    So really it just comes down to taking delight in others in a way that's mutually authentic?
    Yeah. Tapping into inherent "goodness".

  8. #38
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Interesting indeed! I'm trying to accommodate for my weak Si these days, and I like the way you put it. I'm familiar with that NeFi ecstasy feeling, and that might be a nice way to approach the idea of "listening to my needs" and doing what's best for me in any given situation without having to rely on my less than stellar Si. Some others suggested working with your strongest functions rather than working on strengthening weak functions, and that helps me see how that actually might work in an applied way. Thanks for the insight
    Oh well I'm so glad it was useful for you!! I am trying to focus more on Fi too for choosing... I've been trying NeTe for years to no avail. Good luck!!

  9. #39
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes! I feel this with my Si-dom. It was actually a curious experience to eventually figure out that he was an ISFJ, because when I first went out with him, I thought maybe he was an ENFP like me. He has a fluidity with information that is very much akin to my own, though his is all world-details that I tend to just assume into the patterns instead of extracting them. But it's like you discover that your inferior is inherent in your own processing - you just didn't recognize it because you were so focused on the other thing. You initially think that it is contrary to the way you see things, but you realize that it supports your worldview, even enriches it, because it solves a lot of the struggles you've had with your dominant. Plus with dominant-inferior pairings, an interesting arrangement of functions is set up such that:
    I think what you had to say about you and your ISFJ is lovely, Sky. I think it might make a difference when the function that does the inferior-dominant swap is perceiving or judging for how these things work out long-term. I dated an INFP for a while, and towards the end I started to run into the problem that I run into with many of my more intimate relationships with NFPs. I always find myself outsourcing some part of my emotional self-regulation. It's an issue that's symptomatic of the larger problem which is that there's such an easy division of labor with an IFP that I don't feel that I'm challenged to grow in the same way I'd be in a pairing which required more work to figure out. I don't think love should be painful, but I don't think it should be easy, either. He and I just sorta fell into a pattern. We stagnated. I don't want someone to defeat my boogie men for me. I don't want to need someone like that. I'm actually pretty blessed to have someone in my life right now who gets me enough to see my deficits, and manages to accept them while challenging me to be better than them. That's not to say that I couldn't have a similar relationship with someone who was Fi-dom, but I just think the temptation to just slide into that place of ease is there.

    What do you find to be your motivation for growth when you and your ISFJ complement each other so well? Naturally, there's friction in opposites as well. But, for whatever reason, the most important differences between myself and the INFP felt irreconcilable. Like, certain things were just off limits, because it wasn't just a difference of opinion, but something fundamentally different about how the other one was. It narrowed our scope in a lot of ways, and contributed to a dynamic where the focus were those more comfortable things. It felt sometimes like it could go on forever in that surface kind of way, if it weren't so horribly lonely.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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