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  1. #21
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    That was beautifully said. This is true for me too. How you ever managed to put that it words is amazing to me. Thank you!!
    x2 we are at least 3 ENFPs now backing up this theory

  2. #22
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    I prefer the term "polite disinterest"
    I have seen INFPs exhibit polite disinterest-it is not unreasonable and I dont mind it, as the door is not opened in the first place. You know where you stand in a sense and you can along productively with the INFP. My complaint isnt against INFPs at large, but at dickish behavior on the part of one INFP.

    This INFP uses it as a tool. He plays a game where he invites you in with congenial conversation, exhibits interest which invites you to share more, then shuts you down abruptly and even smirks. He is especially keen on doing this in front of others who come up in mid conversation-he shifts and then acts like the topic of conversation he initiated was your idea and is totally weird and he wants nothing to do with it. He takes it to an additional level by playing (inept) games at social engineering, where he excludes me from team lunches or group events and doesnt invite me to meetings. He creates the environment of a team, then intentionally excludes me from that team. It is very childish and I let his attempts at exclusivity affect me far more than it should. It is the opening of the door, which makes it hurtful. The false invitation-the bait and switch behavior, just to shut someone out.

    His behavior also varies-when he doesnt feel threatened, he is not unreasonable, but the more threatened he becomes, the worse the above behaviors become.

    The reason why it was of interest is that it is him using his Si to feed off the neurosis of my own inferior Si, while I in turn use my Te to feed off the neurosis of his inferior Te. Not kind at all.

  3. #23
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have seen INFPs exhibit polite disinterest-it is not unreasonable and I dont mind it, as the door is not opened in the first place. You know where you stand in a sense and you can along productively with the INFP. My complaint isnt against INFPs at large, but at dickish behavior on the part of one INFP.

    This INFP uses it as a tool. He plays a game where he invites you in with congenial conversation, exhibits interest which invites you to share more, then shuts you down abruptly and even smirks. He is especially keen on doing this in front of others who come up in mid conversation-he shifts and then acts like the topic of conversation he initiated was your idea and is totally weird and he wants nothing to do with it. He takes it to an additional level by playing (inept) games at social engineering, where he excludes me from team lunches or group events and doesnt invite me to meetings. He creates the environment of a team, then intentionally excludes me from that team. It is very childish and I let his attempts at exclusivity affect me far more than it should. It is the opening of the door, which makes it hurtful. The false invitation-the bait and switch behavior, just to shut someone out.

    His behavior also varies-when he doesnt feel threatened, he is not unreasonable, but the more threatened he becomes, the worse the above behaviors become.

    The reason why it was of interest is that it is him using his Si to feed off the neurosis of my own inferior Si, while I in turn use my Te to feed off the neurosis of his inferior Te. Not kind at all.
    How is it Si?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  4. #24
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Otoh, ENFPs seem to use a more dynamic approach - engulfing being one of them. It seems we use Fi indeed to anticipate anothers needs. It is after all our parental function which is used to express care for others. I used to use engulfing for everything but found that not everyone appreciates it so I try to do my homework beforehand now and keep my distance as I observe the person. If I don't get that chance, I try to match their steps, respond in equal intensity to theirs, let them lead. It truly becomes a dance. I also notice that if I get too enthused, I take over and befuddle them often. I try to only engulf someone who is distraught, these days - though sometimes I cannot help myself and run roughshod over them when I get enthused about something. But it usually is reserved for when someone just needs an oxytocine blanket *NOW*. I'll try to minimize any other blows or impacts and mold to the form they need me to be at that point. For the most part though, I just try to slowly learn the way others walk through life so I can mimic it and come along

    Once I know their dance, I check to see if they want to know mine. If they are open to it, I might actually show them what I'm all about - up to the level they are interested. And yes, I do keep score as to what level that is and from there use all the gathered data to inform my decision as to what place they will have in my life, and what we can bring to each others lives.
    Amargith, do you find yourself "engulfing" in a sense as a mode of perception, not emotional comforting? I guess I feel I use it to make observation about the other person, but it does not always translate to an external emotional response-they may not even be aware of anything except, that I seem a bit distant because I am focused around them, not spot on them.

    I would never dream of emotionally engulfing an ENTP, all NeTe for those guys and all TeSi for the ESTJs. Different needs for different folks, but it feels very natural to do so-I will engulf them perceptually to understand their pattern, but appear emotionally restrained. this could be the sp/sx though.

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Amargith, do you find yourself "engulfing" in a sense as a mode of perception, not emotional comforting? I guess I feel I use it to make observation about the other person, but it does not always translate to an external emotional response-they may not even be aware of anything except, that I seem a bit distant because I am focused around them, not spot on them.

    I would never dream of emotionally engulfing an ENTP, all NeTe for those guys and all TeSi for the ESTJs. Different needs for different folks, but it feels very natural to do so-I will engulf them perceptually to understand their pattern, but appear emotionally restrained. this could be the sp/sx though.
    Sure, but i dont experience that as engulfing as such. Or maybe I do, but I leave that one as a last resort (see later in post). For me thats more of a scientific research-approach. I'll do that with people I'm not trying to bond with but have to get on with or have to work together with (my sx is showing...). It is more of an 'getting in sync with your programming' thing. It works like learning their dance, it is just a lot more focused on getting the steps down than it is about getting to know one another.

    If it is truly important however, I'll make an effort to fully research their inner workings, in a very fast manner by 'engulfing' and molding as you suggested, I guess. It isn't something I like to do coz it means I could potentially piss them off and get in their way, but it is the fastest way to learn how you can help in this situation - kind of akin to being pulled on the dance floor and going with it, learning as you go as it were. I'm bound to make some mistakes as I'm not naturally attuned to what needs to be done in order to dance the dance correctly, but more to who they are, which means I'll get in their way or have to play catch-up. But once I've got the basics of their thinking process down, it goes a lot smoother, admittedly. Iow, I have a lot more experience and confidence when applying the oxytocine blanket

    Sp vs Sx?
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  6. #26
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    How is it Si?
    His response is the opening of the space that rex described in the OP-the withdrawal into oneself. Fi + Si

    You ask someone to share, then you reject them in totality as they share. It is a bit like an INTP asking an ENTP to tell them about their idea, then coming back and instead of responding to the one idea, telling the ENTP they are too stupid to think at all. In general, I am okay not be included as part of a group-I adapted to being the odd kid out as a kid-but he plays games where he extends an offering, extends the connection, then retracts it, for no reason, over and over and over again-it feels like punishment.

    It is my neurotic Si, as in the back of my mind Si tickles and says that I should be more normal-I almost always ignore it, and instead frolic in the bountiful fields of Ne, but there is a very real desire to be part of a group and be accepted as "normal". Fi + Si. The solution is not to accept the offer, but I do genuinely want to be kind and return his overtures, and not be mean.

    My apologies, the above in rather confusing to read through

    EDIT-in retrospect I do wonder if this isnt some sort of Ne to Si sort of thing he is flipping through. Thus he is unaware of how he closes down and impacts others. If my tert Te drives me to be competent, his tert Si drives him to be....normal? I dont know.

  7. #27
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Sure, but i dont experience that as engulfing as such. Or maybe I do, but I leave that one as a last resort (see later in post). For me thats more of a scientific research-approach. I'll do that with people I'm not trying to bond with but have to get on with or have to work together with (my sx is showing...). It is more of an 'getting in sync with your programming' thing. It works like learning their dance, it is just a lot more focused on getting the steps down than it is about getting to know one another.

    If it is truly important however, I'll make an effort to fully research their inner workings, in a very fast manner by 'engulfing' and molding as you suggested, I guess. It isn't something I like to do coz it means I could potentially piss them off and get in their way, but it is the fastest way to learn how you can help in this situation - kind of akin to being pulled on the dance floor and going with it, learning as you go as it were. I'm bound to make some mistakes as I'm not naturally attuned to what needs to be done in order to dance the dance correctly, but more to who they are, which means I'll get in their way or have to play catch-up. But once I've got the basics of their thinking process down, it goes a lot smoother, admittedly. Iow, I have a lot more experience and confidence when applying the oxytocine blanket

    Sp vs Sx?
    Ah, the sx vs sp sounds about right. I guess when I think about the TPs, getting to know them is getting to know what they think, not what they feel, so I almost remove emotions on purpose? I havent really thought about it before. I have no mercy on the INTJs, they get the full engulfment, because it makes them smile.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    His response is the opening of the space that rex described in the OP-the withdrawal into oneself. Fi + Si

    You ask someone to share, then you reject them in totality as they share. It is a bit like an INTP asking an ENTP to tell them about their idea, then coming back and instead of responding to the one idea, telling the ENTP they are too stupid to think at all. In general, I am okay not be included as part of a group-I adapted to being the odd kid out as a kid-but he plays games where he extends an offering, extends the connection, then retracts it, for no reason, over and over and over again-it feels like punishment.

    It is my neurotic Si, as in the back of my mind Si tickles and says that I should be more normal-I almost always ignore it, and instead frolic in the bountiful fields of Ne, but there is a very real desire to be part of a group and be accepted as "normal". Fi + Si. The solution is not to accept the offer, but I do genuinely want to be kind and return his overtures, and not be mean.

    My apologies, the above in rather confusing to read through

    EDIT-in retrospect I do wonder if this isnt some sort of Ne to Si sort of thing he is flipping through. Thus he is unaware of how he closes down and impacts others. If my tert Te drives me to be competent, his tert Si drives him to be....normal? I dont know.
    Not 100% following, but the functions do tend to trip me up a bit anyway. I guess I don't see how what you describe is related Si, that is all. I had thought Si has to do with comparing something to an internal "database" of previous experiences?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #29
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Nice.
    How do you do this?
    Rex please accept my apologies-I have derailed your thread via a bitch session about a random annoying INFP. I’ll cease and desist, its just been a cranky, bad month for me and I feel like being a total bitch for no good reason, but didn’t mean to distract from your interesting idea.

    Regarding your question-it is like breathing. It simply is part of being. Engulfing/connecting/perceiving another is a bit like opening one’s eyes, then closing them again, breathing out, then breathing in again.. You extend the perception, then you internalize it and analyze. Of particular interest is the Si nature of it-Ne is doing the perceiving, but Si is where the images are being preserved and the templates (aka the emotional connections/molds/forms) are being stored. Much like an ISTJ recalls that a manufacturing process, in general, should proceed following a certain set of predefined rules, I would note that Bob will typically proceed according to a set of observed, consistent behavioral patterns based upon historical norms for his behavior, Fi patterns, not Te patterns. When those patterns shift, when the mold no longer feels like its Si counterpart, its people database entry on Bob, it is indicative of an issue of some sort with Bob. Given that I feel most comfortable when those patterns are complied with,as Si serves as an anchor, I will tend to act to ease Bob’s emotional state to return him to his norm via either emotional soothing or actions to ease the issue he is experiencing..

    (Note how this misapplies an Si requirement of consistency to Ni or Se users-a perceptive failure)

    Another interesting way this can be used-I never have to meet you to feel strongly for you. I grieve for the sadness of people I have never actually known, but because I can find a people entry in the Si database that comes close to representing them, I can generalize the feelings that I assume they would feel, onto that generic template, and feel their pain. This is why ENFPs can carry the weight of the worlds pain inside of us, to the point of being overwhelmed by it. I believe what’s his name said we can generate a Simulacrum of the other individual and I think the conclusion was that most of the time we don’t interact with you-we interact with the Simulacrum itself, our copy of you that we carry around. So much for real connection. 

    This can lead to an ever present sense of guilt for all of the other things that we should be doing that we cannot do, to help people we have never met, to solve problems we should not be owning in the first place

  10. #30
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I gesture frenetically when animated. I'm just not animated all the time. I also laugh maniacally with my whole body, but that's maybe another topic.
    Would you say those are habitual states for you? I wasn't trying to say that INFPs are incapable of outward expression, more to examine a quality I feel is unique to that type. That quality of loaded stillness.


    My e9 ISFP step-dad has a more calm presence than me, but also exhibits more general "pleasantness" or "gentleness", especially with strangers. I'm more aloof, but also more fiery when I do express - much more hot & cold, less "even", all or nothing. Someone once said there's something a tad "violent" about me. I just thought it was 4 vs 9. I would say that INFPs generally feel "heavier" than ISFPs, based on the ones I know, but 9s in general have the more still vibe. Or maybe it's just so pronounced in me it looks plain old "cold". I positively send female phobic 6s into a panic because they cannot read me & sometimes think I might cause problems. People don't seem to read well whatever is "exuded".
    I don't think that an INFPs ability to create an emotional atmosphere necessarily points to positive or negative emotion. It's just whatever the INFP happens to be feeling at the time if they so choose to convey it. I don't really think that this quality is an unconscious one (as I think it's a Fi-Si phenomena), nor renders your type an "open book". It's also possible that some are more capable of/tend to rely more on the ability to create emotional atmosphere than others. I have no clue what it means, and it carries no connotation for me. It's just something I've observed in the type. It's interesting, though, that Jung has apparently made an observation along the same lines, though.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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