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  1. #11
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i don't know if that's an introvert thing...or just a fi thing or what that it is but i feel that way too...maybe at some point in my life i cared more but i honestly just walk around completely unaffected..i just simply don't care what others think...i don't feel responsible for them and their judgements of me are meaningless...i mean...random people that just happen to be sharing the same physical space as me.

    i hope this doesn't mean i'm becoming defective in some way...

    but really what's really going on is i'm just lost in thought...it has nothing to do with anything else.
    I DO care about what people think, it's more of the oblivious factor, as you state in the bolded. When I find out someone has been projecting weird crap onto me, then it DOES hurt my feelings. Or I feel frustrated that I've hurt someone else's feelings because they think I was being intentionally dismissive of them or that my moodiness is because of them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #12
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    yeah my infp bf cares too. i'm sorry if it causes you distress often. that's not cool. i just think people should assume less.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #13
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    I definitely identify with a preference for "putting something forth". In a sense, sharing seems more second nature than giving to me. Activities rarely seem finished and only in far hindsight are they viewed as void of possibility.

    I would say that 50% of my natural animation while talking comes from the inflection of my voice. I tend to pay pretty close attention to it, how it relates to the discussion, and how it relates to my feelings. With this awareness, the overall development can be reworked in interesting ways. 40% is expressed through the eyes.

    To me, conversations are mostly about a topic and rarely about the discussion.

    I've given this some thought and it seems like I know I'm doing well for myself if I can dispense a set of linear information from start to finish. Every bit is stitched together using an underlying bias toward a certain subject; while I intuitively get the sense that everything is connected, proving those connections to be comprehensible and tangible takes time. This process gets stifled if I'm so preoccupied with myself that viewing the world is like lighting a room with faintly open window blinds - at the very least you'll get a background sense of what's going on outside, but you struggle to make a conversation out of it unless you make some assumptions and deductions. Oddly enough, it's on this dark foundation of feeling and relative ignorance that conversation material can be grounded because you know that it's by feelings and values that you relate to everything, regardless of how well informed you are. From this angle, I've done my own speculation about how we interpret our internal mechanics - perhaps what I think of as my feeling is others' intuition, and the differences lie more in the semantics of how we describe our psychology. However, I notice that lead with a Perceiving function tend to entrust their entire beings to what they see with less of an overt emphasis on how they see it. It's this difference that keeps me from believing that I lead with a Perceiving function. Leading with a judging function gives you a strong propensity to differentiate things, but in Ji, there is a second element of differentiation that prioritizes the subjective "self" over the environment. A lot of people might give me flack for making that statement, but unless we come up with a less stigmatized vocabulary for it, INFPs in particular are probably going to often be interpreted as one of the most selfish of types. The negligence of the subjective "self" suffered by the Je dom person may equally lend itself to selfishness.

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I've always found the stillness of INFPs to be interesting. Everything except their eyes. It's as if the physical gestures that might accompany their words are carried out in their imagination, and what you see get externally are the residual emotions of the not-there movements.
    What kind of stillness do you mean? Do you mean a physical one and/or a mental one? I can be extremely still when I'm swept up in a daydream, or am totally gripped by an idea being conveyed to me. But I'm naturally quite absent-mindedly fidgety. I agree about the eyes; mine are always being drawn to other things, even when I'm listening intently to someone else. And like @OrangeAppled, I gesture a lot when animated (to the point that people tease me about it). I can also become very expressive (sometimes in a very Te style) when speaking about something that interests me or that I want to get across to others.

    Thinking about how feeling is related through mannerisms creates an interesting comparison when you think about INFPs relative to their FP near cousins. Tertiary Si in INFPs not only points to the stillness I just described, but it's larger consequence, which is their ability to foster a certain emotional atmosphere around their internal state. This is distinct from ISFPs who seem to be more about personal embodiment of those states. If an ISFP exhibits their emotions, then an INFP exudes them.
    Hmm, I don't know about this. People don't give me much feedback on my behaviour (it's not the done thing where I'm from), so I can only really make educated guesses at what energy I give off. I generally don't have much impact on the atmosphere around me, except when I feel the need to smooth over an uncomfortable/problematic tone (and my Social first instinct comes into play). I'm not very expressive of inner emotions and I don't think that filters through much. I usually willingly express superficial, transient emotions, which people may mistake for being more meaningful than they are. I think people find me kinda walled off in a way they can't quite work out and this creates a natural distance between myself and others. Sometimes it's due to my space cadet quality; people seem unsure about the reasons for it and may guess (99% time, wrongly), but usually there's not much 'reason' for it; my mind just wanders places and I find this engaging. I can also be present in a room, amongst a group of people, and yet not really be actively involved with what is going on. I might listen a lot and only make the odd playful remark or flippant joke; I might ask the odd question or become talkative when the conversation goes down a path that interests me more; but in many ways I'm a aloof bystander that just occasionally steps in. I can be unbelievably talkative once you get me going, but this talkativeness comes in fits and starts.

    The INFPs talent for emotional atmosphere is to an extent shared by ENFPs, but approached inversely. An INFP desires to convey something genuine to their internal state, their true self, their being as it came to be at that moment, and leverages Ne to guide the listener's own sense of empathy. A lot goes unsaid, allowing the listener to infer what ought to be in those gaps based on their own experiences and feelings, and in investing that emotional equity the listener suddenly finds themselves with a stake in whatever comes next. A connection has been made that makes a shared experience out of the INFPs personal, subjective state.
    Yes and no. This is interesting though; it perhaps says more about how we come across than what we are. Mostly we don't mean to be oblique or mysterious, or to subtly effect the atmosphere of the room, but this may be the result of our behaviour. We just go where our minds take us and our interactions with others follow a similar line. I don't really know how to have an impact on people or to connect to them; I just convey my subjectivity (or listen to others') and hope that does the biz. I might tailor the information to the person (eg. what things I think will interest them) and try to be polite/respectful/pleasant, but I can't really bend myself much beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I think what's hard for me is that I feel like I get Fi at this sorta conceptual level, but it's a struggle to make sense of it on a more visceral one. I don't want to be anyone but who I am, but I recognize that the skill set that you possess as Fi-doms and Fi-aux in terms of being able to understand emotional needs--your own and those of others--is absolutely invaluable. Especially in relationships.

    I guess in a way I was hoping that I missed the mark in terms of my understanding, because now there's desire and apparently comprehension wanting for something that will lead to actual integration. It's genuinely disheartening. I really felt for you Standuble when you were talking about your occasional Te-fueled dreams of financial empire. I deal with something similar in this intense desire to be really and genuinely known by someone, to be naked in that way, but everything about me is set-up to point me away from that exact kind of vulnerability.
    I see. You're starting to get an awareness of your own Fi, only to discover it's more interesting/valuable/complex/elusive than you first thought? I feel more like that about Te, lately. I've spent a lifetime being somewhat judgemental of Te qualities, and over the last few years I've come to see that it's more than I expected (if that makes sense). I've learned to appreciate it so much more and am learning to use it more effectively. It's become a bit of fascination for me to access those parts of myself.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The only INFP I know very well does this. Interestingly, he uses it as a tool against people he dislikes....they express something and instead of responding or adapting to them, he instead represses the environment...then withdraws as though there is something wrong with them but by his inactivity, he pulls the atmosphere with him. He does it selectively to people he finds threatening, and presents everyone else with a facade of the "nice guy" in a 9 sort of way. It strikes me as a "mean girl" sort of catty thing to do, a movement of emotional exclusion meant to isolate.
    I prefer the term "polite disinterest"
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Nice.

    I think what's hard for me is that I feel like I get Fi at this sorta conceptual level, but it's a struggle to make sense of it on a more visceral one. I don't want to be anyone but who I am, but I recognize that the skill set that you possess as Fi-doms and Fi-aux in terms of being able to understand emotional needs--your own and those of others--is absolutely invaluable. Especially in relationships.

    I guess in a way I was hoping that I missed the mark in terms of my understanding, because now there's desire and apparently comprehension wanting for something that will lead to actual integration. It's genuinely disheartening. I really felt for you @Standuble when you were talking about your occasional Te-fueled dreams of financial empire. I deal with something similar in this intense desire to be really and genuinely known by someone, to be naked in that way, but everything about me is set-up to point me away from that exact kind of vulnerability.
    Poor thing. In your case I think the Fi is trolling you pretty bad with your Fi insisting that its needs and views are important even though objectively and rationally they are not. I don't think being an Fi-dom is what it's cracked up to be and I don't think its necessary for relationships. It's ineffective at determining the wants and needs of your partner (if your Fi even desires a partner to begin with) and only achieves worth when you sit down and the two people talk about it.

    FWIW I read the graveyard Te vs Ti thread where you and Inari are discussing Fi. I think you two have a good understanding of it and it seems to be well developed. The problem (apart from inferior function discomfort) from what I can see is that your Fi lacks "the trusted voice" as I call it where information from Fi regarding wants/needs/values etc. are trusted implicity as what you want in that moment without any second guessing (second guessing comes later in wondering whether you took the best course of action.) The wisdom of this is questionable as its accuracy can't be measured/ pretty much unfalsifiable and sometimes it can lead to fuck-ups in situations and can damage interpersonal relations with others. If you wish to integrate I would suggest you either try asking which feedback Fi suggests fits in with everything else inside your inner world (I lack the ability to explain but the sentiment is shared throughout its network) by making logical determinations or ignore that area entirely and keep it subservient to Te.

  7. #17
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    The INF Mannerisms on Video thread got me thinking first about INFPs I've known, and then more broadly about how FPs operate. For the past few years, I've been trying to work on being more open/aware/expressive of/whatever is the appropriate verbiage my own introverted feeling. I've been blessed to have FPs (and even an INTJ or two) in my life willing and patient enough to help me develop my understanding. This post was originally supposed to just be about INFPs, but I'm curious now if there's any accuracy to my observations of them and other FP types I mention. I'm eager to learn, so feel free to demolish any of what follows if it's not true to your own experience.

    ______________


    I've always found the stillness of INFPs to be interesting. Everything except their eyes. It's as if the physical gestures that might accompany their words are carried out in their imagination, and what you see get externally are the residual emotions of the not-there movements.

    Thinking about how feeling is related through mannerisms creates an interesting comparison when you think about INFPs relative to their FP near cousins. Tertiary Si in INFPs not only points to the stillness I just described, but it's larger consequence, which is their ability to foster a certain emotional atmosphere around their internal state. This is distinct from ISFPs who seem to be more about personal embodiment of those states. If an ISFP exhibits their emotions, then an INFP exudes them.

    The INFPs talent for emotional atmosphere is to an extent shared by ENFPs, but approached inversely. An INFP desires to convey something genuine to their internal state, their true self, their being as it came to be at that moment, and leverages Ne to guide the listener's own sense of empathy. A lot goes unsaid, allowing the listener to infer what ought to be in those gaps based on their own experiences and feelings, and in investing that emotional equity the listener suddenly finds themselves with a stake in whatever comes next. A connection has been made that makes a shared experience out of the INFPs personal, subjective state. Conversely, the connection between inference and feeling seems to be less linear for ENFPs. It's not so clear as to say their focus is purely the creation of that space made by inference, though that seems to be significant to how they operate. More accurate is probably to say that the auxiliary use of Fi in ENFPs makes conveying their own internal state a less overwhelming focus, and places the emphasis more on respect for the other individual as such, and the ability to connect--Fi to Fi--with those around them. The ability to create a mood is more about bringing something forth than putting something forward, enabling the discovery of infinite and hereto unknown points of convergence.
    This is pretty much the essence of it, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The only INFP I know very well does this. Interestingly, he uses it as a tool against people he dislikes....they express something and instead of responding or adapting to them, he instead represses the environment...then withdraws as though there is something wrong with them but by his inactivity, he pulls the atmosphere with him. He does it selectively to people he finds threatening, and presents everyone else with a facade of the "nice guy" in a 9 sort of way. It strikes me as a "mean girl" sort of catty thing to do, a movement of emotional exclusion meant to isolate.

    He does this to me from time to time, as I was hired to be his peer, and it first it was hurtful. To be blunt, because I am not very nice, I now retaliate with a heaping does of crappy tert Te and just one-up him on whatever task we have to share and by allowing other to see his (numerous, endless) fuck-ups and incompetence.

    I found it interesting that we attack one another with our tert functions.



    This will sound strange...but we are actually dumping out our own core, like a template, vomiting out our soul, and allowing it to wrap around the other person and mold to them. We are not leaving the space open so they can fill it-we are filling it with ourselves, our soul, our essence, which we adapt to mold around them, to fit thier needs, to fill out their template. We engulf them, morph around them, then reabsorb what we just learned. It is nothing to do with how we feel and everything to do with what we, quite lieterally, feel they feel.

    ^^This is what it feels like. Biologically, I suspect we have overactive mirror nuerons that activate to mimic the perceived emo state of the other. This requires a huge amount of energy, as we are trying to experience so much external emotion, that we ignore what our own real emotions are. This will sound wierd, but overtime, we build templates of how people should feel-really their above mold, avaraged over time. When the individual differs from the mold...basically our filling of the middle space between us is too different, is signifies that there is something angstful for the person and we seek to soothe them to return them to the mold that we know is thier "norm".

    (i say we, really meaning me but I have seen other enfps express some of the same sentiments)
    I do agree with the engulfing, but it is not the only tool in my box, I find.


    I think that INFPS are more present in their own world, and when they do step outside, they - like Rex said - shine quietly, are steadfast in what they have to offer and people can gather around, as such, to their own liking and come as close or stay as far as they wish.

    Otoh, ENFPs seem to use a more dynamic approach - engulfing being one of them. It seems we use Fi indeed to anticipate anothers needs. It is after all our parental function which is used to express care for others. I used to use engulfing for everything but found that not everyone appreciates it so I try to do my homework beforehand now and keep my distance as I observe the person. If I don't get that chance, I try to match their steps, respond in equal intensity to theirs, let them lead. It truly becomes a dance. I also notice that if I get too enthused, I take over and befuddle them often. I try to only engulf someone who is distraught, these days - though sometimes I cannot help myself and run roughshod over them when I get enthused about something. But it usually is reserved for when someone just needs an oxytocine blanket *NOW*. I'll try to minimize any other blows or impacts and mold to the form they need me to be at that point. For the most part though, I just try to slowly learn the way others walk through life so I can mimic it and come along

    Once I know their dance, I check to see if they want to know mine. If they are open to it, I might actually show them what I'm all about - up to the level they are interested. And yes, I do keep score as to what level that is and from there use all the gathered data to inform my decision as to what place they will have in my life, and what we can bring to each others lives.

    Another tool I use is similar to what INFPs do, though I do it with a lot less..ehhm, stillness, I guess
    Its about turning your 'light' on. You come into a group, make an entrance, and show you are approachable, interested in what people are doing, and responsive to anyone who makes an approach as you hunt for common ground. I call it fishing for connections

    A variant on that is to fish for a cause. You make the same approach and entrance but make it clear what you are about - similar to what INFPs do, but with more of a..well goal-oriented approach which shows as a certain commerciality I think The champion of a cause as such, to see who you can inspire to join up. It can also be used in really big groups - without necessarily having a cause in mind -where you have trouble keeping track of *everyone* and where fishing is just unproductive, as it can let kindred spirits know where to find you in that group.

    I cant speak for INFPs, though I suspect they too have different modes and adaptations and use their methods in much the same way when gathering data they require to build their lives
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #18
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    This is pretty much the essence of it, yes.



    I do agree with the engulfing, but it is not the only tool in my box, I find.


    I think that INFPS are more present in their own world, and when they do step outside, they - like Rex said - shine quietly, are steadfast in what they have to offer and people can gather around, as such, to their own liking and come as close or stay as far as they wish.

    Otoh, ENFPs seem to use a more dynamic approach - engulfing being one of them. It seems we use Fi indeed to anticipate anothers needs. It is after all our parental function which is used to express care for others. I used to use engulfing for everything but found that not everyone appreciates it so I try to do my homework beforehand now and keep my distance as I observe the person. If I don't get that chance, I try to match their steps, respond in equal intensity to theirs, let them lead. It truly becomes a dance. I also notice that if I get too enthused, I take over and befuddle them often. I try to only engulf someone who is distraught, these days - though sometimes I cannot help myself and run roughshod over them when I get enthused about something. But it usually is reserved for when someone just needs an oxytocine blanket *NOW*. I'll try to minimize any other blows or impacts and mold to the form they need me to be at that point. For the most part though, I just try to slowly learn the way others walk through life so I can mimic it and come along

    Once I know their dance, I check to see if they want to know mine. If they are open to it, I might actually show them what I'm all about - up to the level they are interested. And yes, I do keep score as to what level that is and from there use all the gathered data to inform my decision as to what place they will have in my life, and what we can bring to each others lives.

    Another tool I use is similar to what INFPs do, though I do it with a lot less..ehhm, stillness, I guess
    Its about turning your 'light' on. You come into a group, make an entrance, and show you are approachable, interested in what people are doing, and responsive to anyone who makes an approach as you hunt for common ground. I call it fishing for connections

    A variant on that is to fish for a cause. You make the same approach and entrance but make it clear what you are about - similar to what INFPs do, but with more of a..well goal-oriented approach which shows as a certain commerciality I think The champion of a cause as such, to see who you can inspire to join up. It can also be used in really big groups - without necessarily having a cause in mind -where you have trouble keeping track of *everyone* and where fishing is just unproductive, as it can let kindred spirits know where to find you in that group.

    I cant speak for INFPs, though I suspect they too have different modes and adaptations and use their methods in much the same way when gathering data they require to build their lives
    That was beautifully said. This is true for me too. How you ever managed to put that it words is amazing to me. Thank you!!
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  9. #19
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    That was beautifully said. This is true for me too. How you ever managed to put that it words is amazing to me. Thank you!!
    Pretty much sums up my feelings about most of the contributions to this thread. Thank you guys. I'm gonna mull some of this and come back with questions later tonight.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #20
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    That was beautifully said. This is true for me too. How you ever managed to put that it words is amazing to me. Thank you!!
    Pretty much sums up my feelings about most of the contributions to this thread. Thank you guys. I'm gonna mull some of this and come back with questions later tonight.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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