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Thread: INFPs who want to be INFJs...

  1. #41

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    I think on some level, when I first started this whole crazy typology thing back in high school, I wanted to be anything BUT INFP. But that was because the first profiles I read were on TypeLogic, and it seemed to be telling me: INFP's are delusional little clouds of cotton candy, ain't that sweet?

    But now it's pretty obvious people aren't these profiles. People are people, and even if you're the same type as someone, experience can shape you both VERY differently. And if you are the opposite type of someone, you're still more alike than you are different.

    I have really grown into my INFPness, and while I don't let it restrict me (I can't be good at math, I'm a feeler!), I like the framework it provides for self-awareness. I have a better idea over how I need to grow, and I have a better idea about what I bring to the table.

    Sure, I might never be Jesus, or Gandhi, or Vicky Jo, but I can live with being an INFP

  2. #42
    Junior Member Array Chiroical's Avatar
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    The greatest irony of all this is that outside the internet INFPs and INFJs seem to get on wonderfully. Perhaps that's only true in my own experience - although I very much doubt it, given the impressions I've gotten from anecdotes posted online - but I like every single INFP I know. My closest friend is one, a man I speak so highly of that even girls I've been actively pursuing worry I'll never hold them in higher regard than my friends. I literally cannot begin to express the extent to which knowing that person has been beneficial to me, through both genuine concern and through simply being the guy he is. He's listened when I've needed to be heard, he's been objective when I've needed to be told to stop being an ass, he's quite simply given a shit when nobody else could be bothered. I can only hope I've been the same in return.

    I believe his girlfriend is one, although I can't claim to be sure, and she too is wonderful. She's the quietest person I know, to the extent that she'll frequently socialise without saying a word to anyone, yet every one of our friends who've met her have told me how lovely they found her to be. She's always there for her family, patient with a sister who treats her like a mother and forgiving of a mother who seems, frankly, quite mad. And as much as she so clearly seems to feel uncomfortable with a lot of the things she has to do, she deals with them for the sake of the people she cares about.

    I recently met a group of people at a party. We'd been drinking so conversation was flowing as easily as it ever does when introverts are involved, but the next day there was that familiar uncertainty about who it was most comfortable to talk to. I stepped outside for a cigarette and found one of the guys I'd spoken to sitting alone, chilling out in the sun. We got to chatting and despite having known each other for only a few hours we ended up discussing the kinds of topics that simply don't usually come up. We meandered from psychology to philosophy and even broached some of the most personal topics we'd ever dared to talk about. I genuinely believe we both found that conversation to be a revelation. When I spoke to another friend of his a few days later he told me that they'd both taken the MBTI test. His result? INFP.

    So there are the three best examples I have of why I hold INFPs in such high regard. They can care as much as anyone, they do that which deserves respect as willingly as anyone and they're simply more sodding interesting to me than most. I like them, at least those I've met. And it frustrates me that there's this apparent issue between us all online. Especially an issue which I have to assume stems partially from the simple fact that we are so frequently compared.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Array Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I remain steadfast in my belief that it's just chatter, like some debris on the surface of a river. Deep inside, there is luv.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams Array labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What INFP (and other Fi users) calls passive aggressive is what INFJ (and perhaps other Fe users) call civil conversation; in other words, you get the message across without actually calling the person a name. You leave your statement open enough that the person you're thinking of has a chance to recognize what you're talking about and address it on his own. This saves face for both people, and leaves open the chance that the conversation can take a better turn. We're subtle; we do things indirectly; we work behind the scenes. If you want to label that "passive aggressive," fine, but to me, that's just Fi talking, which doesn't get us. It's fine if you don't get us, but the name calling gets a little oppressive...

    And it's nice to be among people that actually read walls of text and don't respond with tl;dr to anything over a sentence or two. We can be funny. I just think when we're with our own kind, we like to hunker down, because nobody else finds it as interesting as we do.

    Anyway, yeah -- to the OP -- not around here, they don't.
    This is a very good post. I admit to being uncivilized through direct name-calling and so I apologize to @OrangeAppled for that. Some of the posters I admire the most maintain consistently civil and insightful posts like @fidelia and @Coriolis.

    I was thinking about patterns in my posting and realize that anytime I encounter a post that reads as flippant, arrogant, and/or mean on topics related to social power imbalances like typism, sexism, racism, or animal rights, a very strong anger response is triggered in me. I've the done the same as in this thread with some of the young INTP guys and a couple of ENTJ, I think to a lesser degree. It's the flippancy that makes me take out the sledgehammer style. After internal analysis, I think I figured out why and so maybe at some point I can become a bit more consistent. I never hate the poster, but just the specific behavior. If the same people post in a respectful manner, then I respect that. I observe patterns that create some expectation, but I try to take each instance as it is (Fe/Se I think)

    Anyway, I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wish there was a way to do away with those strange INFJ type descriptions that have set off this domino effect. Whether the assumptions are the INFJs are saints or devils, it is all exactly the same. It is about creating outliers. Once someone calls INFJs the devil, it must be balanced by showing them as angels and vice versa. Some INFJs are saints and we should deal with that and be honest about it. Same is true of some being devils, but what is important is that the vast majority are inbetween. If a person wants to correct the distortion of definition, shoot for the exact reality of it rather than overcompensating back and forth between absurd extremes.

    Edit: the way that is done is to lighten the grip on preconceived notions and continually take in new data points. Always question assumptions and look at each instance from different perspectives and ask if there is a way it fits your preconceived model, but far more importantly, is there a way it wouldn't? The human mind is proven to have perception distorted by confirmation bias. The only way to think clearly is to always, always question assumptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Crunch View Post
    It might be fine for some people, but I rather not live in a world where people think it is okay for dolphins to rape each other.

  5. #45
    Analytical Dreamer Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What INFP (and other Fi users) calls passive aggressive is what INFJ (and perhaps other Fe users) call civil conversation; in other words, you get the message across without actually calling the person a name. You leave your statement open enough that the person you're thinking of has a chance to recognize what you're talking about and address it on his own. This saves face for both people, and leaves open the chance that the conversation can take a better turn. We're subtle; we do things indirectly; we work behind the scenes. If you want to label that "passive aggressive," fine, but to me, that's just Fi talking, which doesn't get us. It's fine if you don't get us, but the name calling gets a little oppressive.
    There is a big difference between civil conversation, passive-aggressive behavior, and being a blatant jerk. Let's start with someone having done something that hurts or makes you upset. You could:

    1) Yell at them, call them names, and make threats of retribution;

    2) Point out in neutral terms what they did, and the negative impact on you, and ask for an explanation or correction; or

    3) Let it pass and say nothing, but then hold it over them later and use it to try to make them feel guilty.

    (3) is what I call passive-aggressive (very conflict averse), and my INTP unfortunately is a pro at it. (1) faces the conflict head-on, but unproductively. (2) is the happy medium of facing the conflict with civility.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #46
    Junior Member Array EnemyApprentice's Avatar
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    *scratches head confused at the seemingly illogical statement*

    My understanding is people who analyze themselves, through quizzes or self acquired logic. Tend to be stuck between the two types when judging themselves (because they are so closely related.) The answer to their confusion may seem obvious to some, but because you don't know them (it takes years to fully know someone.) How do you know if you're right? To assume they do it purely for the "rarity" is shallow and doesn't show INFP qualities, because they are all about correct self analysis. Why would they set themselves up for failure when something would mean so much to them? They may have insecurities but when you can hide behind a seemingly anonymous interface it sounds like a load of bull.

    -EnemyApprentice
    ( >=^'-'^=)> The mystical wonders of philosophy in a worded web of psychology. <(=^'-'^=< )
    "Life is but a canvas to our imaginations" -Unknown

  7. #47
    Sugar Hiccup Array OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post


    @OrangeAppled -- You might want to know that INFJs are no longer perceived as nice, saintly people around here, but as 'pretentious', 'controlling', 'stubborn', 'know-it-all', 'high-strung' crazies, so we're at the receiving end of as much unwarranted flak as INFPs now. So people are kinda sensitive.
    No they're not. They feel that way because of a few, minority posters who dared to criticize.
    Their over all rep as a type as compared to, say, an ESFJ is much better still.

    If I gave a monkey's butt about things like reputation, then I'd be more concerned over how my comments on INFJs affect views of me, not INFJs. However, I am free from such concerns because I find it impossible to take myself that seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    But OA, you are not behaving in line with the "group" of INFPs. If I attacked the entire category prejudiciously, then my statements would be false.
    I'm not attacking prejudiciously because I'm not ascribing unrelated aspects to a certain category of people. Is saying "Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah" prejudice? Or "black people tend to have dark skin"? Of course, not ALL do, but that doesn't make these statements prejudice. Personality types are about personality. That is what they define. So to note personality traits in a type is not prejudice, it's just an observation of what it IS. And EVERY personality has negative flaws, and those have patterns across type, just as strengths do. If you accept patterns of strengths, then why not flaws? Why can these not be noted?

    My impression about your communication being snobbish and flippantly bratty apply only to you. I like you personally as a poster and find you often have good insights, but you also cross the line in your behavior. You can certainly call me mean for saying you are bratty, but my comment is in reaction to you behaving that way. Is it mean to tell someone they are being hurtful when hitting someone? You are verbally hitting people and you are being mean, so should I coddle you about it? I didn't think that is what you even want as an INFP who you find to be more "raw" and not politely passive-aggressive. I didn't want to take it passive aggressively by saying that it applies to an entire category of people. That would be completely irrational, and I find your position to be irrational as well because it is simply prejudicial and not insightful. You are often insightful, but not here. Your conclusions are way too extreme and generalized. Even if you have been surfing the net for a decade, there is no way that you know every INFJ and that the extremity of your opinions could apply to each one.
    I know you didn't apply that to all INFPs. That was my point - you attacked ME, an actual individual, whereas I made fun of an abstract concept. You really think I am more out of line? I disagree. You made it much more personal. I had humorous intent; you are serious.

    Passive-aggressive is not polite. It's a way of dodging accountability for one's words by veiling them in niceties & making implications instead of direct statements. That way, no one can call you on it without you pushing it on them as a misunderstanding. It's way more manipulative. I don't find that polite.

    I often find INFJ's "praise" of INFPs & some other types as condescending, like back-handed compliments. This is the disingenuousness I spoke of.

    Regarding the no humor comment - I'm not trying to be funny because I think being flippantly mean is far more dismissive than just shooting a straight arrow when someone is behaving below their potential of insight by being prejudicial, unkind, and unreasonable.
    Dismissive was my very objective in being flippant in this thread. I'm not being "prejudicial, unkind, and unreasonable". If you're going to pull the "it's your perception" card, then the same could apply here. It's perception I am being that way, when another perception is that I am merely being flippant & taking a mocking tone for the sake of it. In other contexts, I think it's not only FAIR, but important to discuss negatives of types.

    If you don't want some angel/devil dichotomy for INFJs, then one way would be not to overreact to any negative comment about your type. Having flaws is human.

    Your arguments are so subjective and intangible, that the only style of argument available is "yes, I think they are horrible", "No they are not" "Yes they are because I've been on their site", "No they aren't because I've been on the site too and my impression is different". I gave you the position that I've been on this site as long as it existed and have not seen INFJs behave as you describe. I've never seen one slap down someone crossing the line as I just did. It's probably because I have higher Fi than most other INFJs. The best way I know to "tear down your argument" is to show Exhibit A: The INFJS on this board that are not the way you describe.
    We can go to INFJ & INFP message boards & see which has loooong thread(s), some of them pinned, on calling out mistyped people. Is that factual enough for you? That is not a matter of perception, but what actually does & does not exist. I can link threads if you like.... Conversely, INFP forums will likely show no recent thread of any kind, and if one is dug up, there will be little to it.

    And I was referring to message boards devoted to each type to note over all "vibes" and trends for a reason. It shows why INFPs would not want to be an INFJ because of trends in their own attitudes.

    There is consensus on perceptions as well. Just as INFP boards are frequently noted as being whiny & depressive, INFJ boards are frequently noted as being highly passive-aggressive. Other people make these perceptions as well, with consistency. Ni descriptions themselves include a ton about arrogance & INFJ profiles comments about difficulty with criticism. So these perceptions are in-line with very definitions of the type. It is not prejudice when you're referencing the very definition of something.

    A lot of unflattering ideas about INFPs are not pulled out of the sky either. It tends to be an exaggeration or misapplication of something stated about the type in its description.

    I don't find INFJs arrogant in a very obvious way, the way most people imagine arrogant, but I'm noting how it can occur (specifically on type forums) & why this would be unappealing for INFPs to identify with. (INFPs have their own patterns of elitism, which I won't elaborate on here.)

    It is frustrating that if I approach the problems with your behavior overtly it is "Fe-shaming", but if it is done indirectly it is "passive-aggression". I have addressed your argument extensively in other threads, and I'm tired of it because you have never demonstrated a single inclination to respond at all. You just keep rehashing the same assumptions over and over and over again. This tells me that the problem is with you in some personal way and is not about holding an actual intellectual position.
    I never saw you address the argument before, only just now above. Otherwise you just proceed to scold me & tell me you don't like my attitude. That's irrelevant to me in this discussion, so if I ignore it, then that's why. Not liking my attitude doesn't disprove anything I say. It seems a red herring to me to go there.

    As for humor - well, I like scathing wit & sometimes, along with absurdities. I may not do it well, but I make an effort because I like it & so do some other people. This is really a matter of taste, which is why making it a moral issue is not something I will buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    @OrangeAppled
    When anyone describes their experience with an MBTI type that is negative, including multiple experiences with a particular type, that information is not verifiable or falsifiable by anyone else. It is your experience and perception and should be accepted as such. My experience and perception with the same type in this instance is different, so who is right? I have zero desire to invalidate anyone's experience, especially if it is painful and unpleasant.
    It can be verifiable. As I mentioned, the thread thing is verifiable. Type definitions are verifiable.

    This doesn't address that regularly other types get bagged on, in jest or seriously, and those types don't get all in a tizzy over it. I've made much worse criticism of ENTPs, ESFPs & ESTJs here & elsewhere that did not incur such butt-hurt-ness*. INFJs are not a type I am targeting, much as you seem to believe. I do enjoy evening the estimation of all types; it's the egalitarian in me.

    * ENTPs made counter-arguments, some outright agreed with it, & still others laughed it off.

    Where the line is crossed is when personal experience/perception is universalized. Your experience/perception and mine are both infinitesimally small in the context of the whole of reality. Whatever an INFJ is as an entire category, neither of us knows. Each person should be free to share their experiences with a type, but stop there and not impose those experiences onto new unknown people. Edit: Also in your post that triggered my reaction you appear to be actively trying to get people to think badly about INFJs in general, which is a form of trolling. Sharing experiences is one thing, but this active attempt to tear down an entire type is not right, rational, or reasonable in the least. /Edit
    I made fun of INFPs also, and myself. I assure you, no one else is taking my post as seriously as you are. And it's a drop in the bucket compared to the trash talked about other types & the internet praise for INFJs over all. Welcome to the world of every other type.

    The point of my comments, outside of general flippancy, was to note that the "special" hang-up is misapplied to INFPs (or ONLY them), and this is evidenced by thread topics (verifiable) and general tone/attitude towards the topic of rarity (yes, that is MY perception). Or at least, INFJs seem much more hung-up on rarity and who is typed correctly. That attitude in itself is something that would make many an INFP "not want to be an INFJ".

    Using my personal perception to explain why I think something should not be taboo.

    Not every INFJ wants to do witch-hunts. I will take you at your word that it happens, but please don't universalize it or any other behaviors. Leave those data points exactly as they are in reality and be open to obtain new data points that could contrast with the old ones instead of using confirmation bias to continually reinforce previous assumptions. That goes for all of us that think with MBTI.
    Those threads still exist & are going strong. I can reference an actuality if I please. I'm going to share my perceptions, knowing others are not so brainless as to take them at face-value without investigating things themselves. You seem to take perceptions as some kind of irreversible judgment, which they are not. I also gave clear context for my comments - they were based on observations of a forum & included the qualifier "some". You're the one universalizing it...

    You're basically telling me to ignore & not note negative things about INFJ forums. Sorry, but INFJs are not exempt from criticism. It's perfectly fair for you to say, "I am not that way", but also note I did not apply my comments to ALL INFJs. SOME are that way, enough to create a certain atmosphere on their forums.

    The INFJ forums have a distinctly different tone from the INFP forums, and this difference is significant to why INFPs would not want to be INFJs. I have a hard time seeing too many INFPs hanging out there for very long & feeling like they fit. If there are mistyped people at an INFJ forum, then I'd bet they are likely ENFJ or ISFJ (just as mistyped INFPs are likely ISFP or ENFP, and they frequently change their identification to those types in time).
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

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  8. #48
    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
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    ^ Te vs Ti, people...from two feelers no less.
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  9. #49
    You have a choice! Array 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ^ Te vs Ti, people...from two feelers no less.
    That was exactly what I was thinking! The exchanges remind me so much of how I argue with my INFP
    4w5 sp/sx EII

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    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    That was exactly what I was thinking! The exchanges remind me so much of how I argue with my INFP
    It is kind of baffling to be on the other side for once

    I mean, I too experience Fe often as oppressive (though less so over the years), as Fi feels that these things *are* personal and deeper, and that Fe makes too many sweeping and inaccurate generalisations often. And I always feel that Fe sort of...comes off as condescending in telling me to stop being so melodramatic and make a big deal out of things and read things into their words as such. I also do not recognise Fe-humor and often experience it as serious judgement instead of just detached observation according to the system they use to assess things in the world. The absoluteness in the tone of voice is maddening at times. Meanwhile, I *get* the Te-side of it all, and see the logic in it, as well as the detached nature and the humor of the situation - though I do think some of the Fi-frustrations could possibly be fuelling these @OrangeAppled? Which in turn could be pushing FeTi buttons, perhaps and being misread as the core of it all. i dunno.

    It is fascinating to be on the other side of it and witness the Te part of it, while empathizing with the Ti-side of it, considering I know what it is like to be in that position
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