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  1. #41
    Member ameeker's Avatar
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    The Jungian intuitive does not necessarily refer to intuitives.

  2. #42
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I might understand what you’re getting at here. Maybe. With my ex, something that I never really got used to was the way he could do something really hurtful and even cause someone to cry and he wouldn’t see the connection unless it was very plainly stated to him. While we were together, I just assumed he knew he was being hurtful and didn’t care/didn’t have the patience to investigate it- yet after we’d broken up, I eventually came to the conclusion that he truly didn’t see it.

    Example: if I’m really terse with someone- suppose I yell something like, “Just leave it alone, I’ll do it later!”- I will pick up on it if they shrink back because of it. And when I notice someone shrink back- that’s when I realize “oh crap, I was totally unfair right there and made this person feel like they were being unreasonable when really it’s about too many things going on in my head.” Or whatever the case is, I see the reaction and possibilities for why I caused that affect will start pouring forth- but he needs “It hurts my feelings that you’re yelling at me” stated clearly or it completely flies under his radar.

    Really, I think it’s the biggest reason it would not have worked out between us. I don’t think I could ever get used to immediately articulating “that hurt my feelings.” I can immediately articulate it in plain terms when I’m observing it happen in someone else: if he snapped, I would notice the other person shrinking back and I’d pull him aside to tell him- and when I did, he always showed concern and wanted to amend it. <- That is how I came to the conclusion that he actually just truly didn’t see it. Because it did seem to take him by surprise. That’s so foreign to me, I don’t begin to understand needing things plainly stated like that and it would never ever occur to me to actually state something like that aloud about my own experience. It’s easy to articulate when I’m not the one experiencing it, which is why I can be a good mediator for him regarding other people- but when I am upset myself, I can't begin to articulate it.

    I want to liken it to being rushed into an emergency room- because, say, my arm got ripped off by a polar bear- and having the person behind the desk say “take a number” and point me in the direction of the waiting area. It would never occur to me that they actually need me to say “I am bleeding profusely, and also I am missing an arm.” I would take their behavior to mean something like, “Yes I see you are bleeding, and missing an arm, we will get to you as soon as we can.” But that’s not what it means at all. [And an unfortunate twist to this language barrier is that I think it actually feels (to Fe/Ti'ers) like we're treating people like they're stupid to lay things out like that.]

    eta: I should add, I realize that one eNTJ ex-husband doesn't make for a very good sample size for generalized statements. I'm just trying to explain the "cluelessness" as I've experienced it. And frankly the INTJs here seem more aware than the few I've known irl.
    @Z Buck McFate --

    Sorry for the thread necro, especially from a n00b. Which would be...me.

    The reason that the INTJs here seem more aware is twofold.

    One, this is a typology site and is concentrating directly on psychology, human interactions, and relationships.
    So even the INTJs happen to have a pretty good "heads up" that whatever is going on, the overarching topic and theme
    is likely to be something about...people or something.

    Secondly, the discussion here is in written form; and in written text, as opposed to face-to-face communications, people
    tend to use present indicative tense pretty uniformly, and literally; and the literary *style* of not-intended-to-be-taken-at-face-value
    text, differs greatly enough from the norm, that even an INTJ can notice; secondly, when one does want to indicate a departure,
    the emoticons typically used here come with handy "mouse-over" labels for extra information.

    Oh, and in reading and writing, one can take in the whole thread at leisure and mull over multiple possibly conflicting meanings
    in one's mind before answering; and then ask in so many words, "What did you mean?" if it is still unclear; or even (even
    portions relief and trepidation) *refrain from answering* if one is still unsure.

    It's much harder to do that in real life. Silence and walking away both send strong social "F You" messages even if one is just puzzled.
    (Ahem, hint to INFPs lurking the thread, that last sentence applies to you too...)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  3. #43
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Ni-Te predicts outcomes of objects/concepts. N-Fe predicts outcomes of social interactions.

    I think OrangeAppled nailed it with the difference in definition of intuition vs. iNtuition.

    As a generality from observing thousands of INTJs online, their Fi gets in the way of their Se observations of people. Ni-Fi idealises people and social interactions. People and social outcomes are THIS and if they're not THIS, they get confused, upset or angry. Plan/vision gone to shit which they'll fight tooth and nail to resist, since this is their inner vision of what must/should be.
    @andante -- now I know what a butterfly feels like as it's being pinned into a glass case.

    Or as Daniel Craig's James Bond said to Eva Green's Vesper Lynde in the railway car scene in Casino Royale,
    "Skewered."
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The recipe (for INTJs, not others!) for this problem is to "go with the flow." Deal with social interactions by engaging in them more frequently than usual, thus gaining reactive social skills that work well with people in general. PLANNING how social interactions should work will (almost) always go wrong for INTJs.
    Then why does NOT planning so often go wrong, or at least not produce the desired result?

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Secondly, the discussion here is in written form; and in written text, as opposed to face-to-face communications, people
    tend to use present indicative tense pretty uniformly, and literally; and the literary *style* of not-intended-to-be-taken-at-face-value
    text, differs greatly enough from the norm, that even an INTJ can notice; secondly, when one does want to indicate a departure,
    the emoticons typically used here come with handy "mouse-over" labels for extra information.

    Oh, and in reading and writing, one can take in the whole thread at leisure and mull over multiple possibly conflicting meanings
    in one's mind before answering; and then ask in so many words, "What did you mean?" if it is still unclear; or even (even
    portions relief and trepidation) *refrain from answering* if one is still unsure.

    It's much harder to do that in real life. Silence and walking away both send strong social "F You" messages even if one is just puzzled.
    (Ahem, hint to INFPs lurking the thread, that last sentence applies to you too...)
    Valid observations. I do prefer written, asynchronous communication in many cases. IRL I am much more likely to send someone an email than call them by phone. The whole area of nonverbal communication seems to lead to misunderstandings on both sides: we don't get other people's cues, and they don't get ours (or see cues where none are present).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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