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  1. #31
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    To connect to the OP, INTJs don't seem too thinky to be intuitive. Their intuitive process is linked towards quantifiable data, rather than focused on the interpersonal level. It still connects with an overall concept map/ web of thoughts that links to a centralized idea. It takes the external data observed and proves a hypothesis that Ni gets a hunch over.

    I find INTJ style intuition in conjunction with Te to be helpful when I end up focusing on internal logical references and make conclusions based on data that isn't there. Ni-Te takes the general concept and searches for data to actually show proof that what is happening is true. NTJs in general seem to lasso in my own Ni-Ti thought process and searches for better terms to explain my own thoughts, and I have to present evidence to prove it. They do have an assured confidence that their intuitions are right, and often times, they are. It's like they come up with a rationale/theory in a burst of insight, and can come up with the data to back it up. It doesn't lack intuition in the least bit in my perspective. It's just more of a focus on "things".

    I actually like the INTJ intuitive process, it seems less clouded by Fe based judgments to me. Often times, I feel that my intuitions and conclusions can be obscured by Fe-based people understanding, which is great with understanding others, but it's really not good when you're analyzing a system (and want the best outcome for everyone involved). INTJs can come up with a solution that focuses on solving the problem. It counterbalances my Ni-Fe process. It allows me to refocus more on an Ni-Ti perspective, being more objective. Sometimes my Fe can get the best of me, and Ni-Te rakes through the b.s.

    In sum, INTJs don't seem too "thinky" to me to be intuitive. It's a different way of making a judgment based off of Ni-insights.
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  2. #32
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering whether INFJs have a concept of what is "intuitive" (as a generic word, not a Jungian one) that tends to be inclusive of Ni-Fe but not Ni-Te. This is occasioned by a person whom I believe to be an INFJ (she had characteristic Ni pauses as she tried to synthesize ideas before she spoke) who observed that if I really were that intuitive, I wouldn't be as clueless about human relationships as I am. I didn't want to argue typology with her, so I let it go, but my response would have been along the lines of "I'm intuitive about things, not people."

    So, in general, does INTJ intuition not really feel like intuition to you, as an INFJ, based on the INTJs you have known?
    Yes, for me it does. But for me, I would understand intuition in that sense as Ni. I don't have a generic definition for intuition.

    I've had some great experiences in dialogue with INTJs on the basis of both being Ni-doms. The key to the great dialogue seemed to be a willingness to be somewhat suspicious of our respective aux functions. When we can focus on Ni and the Ni/Se-inf dynamic, I've had some amazingly great insight-packed discussions with INTJs.

    I think an INFJ who identifies intuition with human relationships would be speaking from a really Fe-heavy place. Taking a step back, centering in Ni in a very deliberate way (and Ni-Se if possible) opens up possibilities for perceiving the Ni-dom-ness of a Te-aux. But the Te-aux would also have to be willing to take a similar step back from being really Te-heavy in the interaction.

    Hope that made sense.

  3. #33
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    To me the general sense of intuition can fit with several functions. Fi can provide intuition about the self and people, Si with something else. I guess I think of it more along the lines of Ni. Everyone has an N function in the top 4, and it works with their other functions, and everyone has intuition in the general sense; so it stands to reason if you believe in typology that it would be colored differently according to type, but it seems to fit Ni most closely.

    I guess on the whole INTJ's and INFJ's would direct their intuition in different ways, but Ni dominance gives them more commonalities than differences ime. It also probably is influenced by the degree of judging preference. Strong thinkers will be more thing-driven and strong feelers will be more people-driven.

  4. #34
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    INTJ intuition feels very much like intuition to me. Ni is Ni, no matter whether it's challenged through Fe or Te.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Wow! A live audience! (Well, sort of)I've been saving my BEST stuff for this. Thank you gray-beard
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #36
    Senior Member Hinastarr's Avatar
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    I suppose I tend to alternate among the two; regardless of how sensitive and emotional a being I truly am, I'm also prone to detaching relatively easily when analyzing or assessing a particular situation via my tertiary Ti, which is usually stimulated by the need to resolve the ideas and visions my subconscious Ni function provides me with. Compulsive thinker that I am, I tend to process the images and influences of my surroundings at a particular instances, maintain the observed image in mind continuously as I try to decipher lurking or underlying meanings, possibilities, and truths beyond it all, and spend extended periods of time reflecting upon circumstances and deliberating options or potential explanations in my head (more frequently than not to a headache-inducing extent, mind you). All in all, however, I am by no means nearly as inclined to do left-brained activities or engage in repeated sessions of logical/ scientific deduction as some other INFJs might (perhaps due to in part to my 4w5 enneagram as well).

    As for INFJs vs INTJs usage of intuition, I believe that INTJs are more predisposed to use their visions from Ni to better determine how to organize their environment systematically and efficiently, in order to logically achieve their objective or particular goal; INFJ however seems more likely to use their Ni either to perceive a vision to better improve society and interconnect it harmoniously into one (based upon the golden "truth" they've identified from their insights), or, when considering more apprehensive, cautious people as myself, predict happenings, conclusions, and interactions during social encounters (under some circumstances). Whereas INTJ wants to organize the world methodically and with precision (to explain why things logically occur as they would, as a scientist so often does), INFJ seeks to interconnect the people in their environment harmoniously and explain why we are morally prone to reacting in certain ways (or motivated by certain desires) under varying occasions.

    Similarly to how INFP seeks moral purity and the presence of a strong value system and inner code of conduct (parallelled with INTPs personal desire for a solid, logical background to develop for themselves to rationally explain the universe's events), INFJ and INTJ seek similar motivations and goals, but in an inverse fashion.

    Analogously:

    INFP attempts to develop moral purity and personal understanding from within, based upon the ideas from the external world; INTP seeks a strong personal system of logical beliefs to better rationalize and explain their surroundings, based from the observations they've encountered externally.

    Likewise, INFJ sees the general picture, develops an ambiguous image beyond it, and slowly has this image become clearer and more concrete based upon their interactions with others and what society has opinionated (hence leading to that "aha!" moment as they somehow determine the root cause, for instance, to the dissatisfaction several employees experience in a working environment due to a common void/ desire that has yet to be fulfilled, yet can only be accomplished by interconnecting the staff into one to slowly work together in achieving their purpose); INTJ, due to tertiary Fi, is much more single-minded and self-interested in certain arenas, desiring to observe the external world and systematically mold it according to their inner vision, motivated by the need to efficiently achieve said objective; they desire logic and the most methodical, precise means for accomplishing the task at hand, whereas INFJ may be slightly more prone to appearing impressionable against the moods and vibes of others in their environment, feeling discomfited by a lack of accord or cooperativeness among their coworkers (or otherwise).

  7. #37
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Ni-Te predicts outcomes of objects/concepts. N-Fe predicts outcomes of social interactions.

    I think OrangeAppled nailed it with the difference in definition of intuition vs. iNtuition.

    As a generality from observing thousands of INTJs online, their Fi gets in the way of their Se observations of people. Ni-Fi idealises people and social interactions. People and social outcomes are THIS and if they're not THIS, they get confused, upset or angry. Plan/vision gone to shit which they'll fight tooth and nail to resist, since this is their inner vision of what must/should be.

  8. #38
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Ni-Te predicts outcomes of objects/concepts. N-Fe predicts outcomes of social interactions.

    I think OrangeAppled nailed it with the difference in definition of intuition vs. iNtuition.

    As a generality from observing thousands of INTJs online, their Fi gets in the way of their Se observations of people. Ni-Fi idealises people and social interactions. People and social outcomes are THIS and if they're not THIS, they get confused, upset or angry. Plan/vision gone to shit which they'll fight tooth and nail to resist, since this is their inner vision of what must/should be.
    These are very apt observations! Thanks!

    The recipe (for INTJs, not others!) for this problem is to "go with the flow." Deal with social interactions by engaging in them more frequently than usual, thus gaining reactive social skills that work well with people in general. PLANNING how social interactions should work will (almost) always go wrong for INTJs.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #39
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    These are very apt observations! Thanks!

    The recipe (for INTJs, not others!) for this problem is to "go with the flow." Deal with social interactions by engaging in them more frequently than usual, thus gaining reactive social skills that work well with people in general. PLANNING how social interactions should work will (almost) always go wrong for INTJs.
    Yes. Relax or as Se would say, just do it. Forget outcome control.

  10. #40
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I understand your frustration. It took me the longest time to finally realize that some people really mean exactly what they say. That was a totally foreign concept for my Fe to comprehend. Growing up in an Fe family, I was trained to always look for clues and anticipate people's intentions.

    Now I have developed a switch-on/switch-off mode for context-scanning, so as long as I guessed the type of the person I'm dealing with correctly, communication can go smoothly.
    REALLY interesting. i'm often surprised and sometimes offended when Fe users think i mean something besides what i'm saying. like they're suspicious or untrusting. i can see how it's not necessarily indicative that they're doubting my sincerity. by the same token, i get frustrated when they expect me to read their intent. it's amazing how many different manifestations of Fe/Fi differences i seem to keep stumbling upon. always happy to understand them better.
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