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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    IMO, when you're dealing with Ni doms, you've going to get a spotty combination of brilliant insights and huge blind spots. We're kind of wonky like that.

    I believe my oldest daughter is INTJ and there have been times when I have assumed that she has known was was going on in a people situation, but was just keeping things close to her vest as she has a perfect right to do, only to find out later she had no idea what was going on with a person and probably could have used some of my Fe if I'd only known.

    And sometimes she'll tell me something and the light will come on and I'll be like "How did I not know that?"
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    In layman's terms "intuitive" is often used to refer to people-relations. This kind of intuition is probably more related to Feeling in MBTI though. I've met SFs who were very intuitive about people. Many NTs have a blindspot there though. So the issue is probably a poor grasp of what intuition is in MBTI & Jungian theory.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #23
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Would you say this is trying to interpret people using Te, or trying to use Fi (or even Fe) and doing it badly?

    I almost see what you mean. I know I sometimes try to predict outcomes (he will do X because of reasons A, B, and C), and someone will tell me some quite different outcome will happen based on other reasons which, to me, seem quite "unreasonable". In other words, I would never even have taken those motivations into account. Often they are correct, and I am left wondering what the connection was; how P and Q could have outweighed A, B, and C to lead to Q instead of X.
    That's a good question. I don't know if it's a result of Ni+Te or Ni+(lack of)Fe or something else. To me it seems that Te people are quite focused on 'face value' details -- which is what I perceive as literalness. I know you've corrected me on this before, and perhaps it's not the best word, but I really can't think of a better term to describe how I feel. Even my INFP boyfriend, with inferior Te, has a degree of 'literalness' when he interprets my words. For example, my habitual "no" at the beginning of the sentence can signal an added detail or a slight shift in perspective of what is to follow, but INFP always interpreted it as "disagreement". So for ages he thought I was disagreeing with him, when I was actually agreeing. In the same situation, maybe another Fe user would pay more attention to my tone of voice and the direction the conversation was going, and that would override the literal meaning of "no" and they would come to the conclusion that I was in agreement.

    I think a lot of the time people don't mean what they say, but their real meanings can be discerned from how they say it, when they say it, how often they say it -- the whole context. I might be wrong about this, but maybe Te is more focused on the 'what' aspect and tends to disregard other clues?
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  4. #24
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I think a lot of the time people don't mean what they say, but their real meanings can be discerned from how they say it, when they say it, how often they say it -- the whole context. I might be wrong about this, but maybe Te is more focused on the 'what' aspect and tends to disregard other clues?

    I might understand what you’re getting at here. Maybe. With my ex, something that I never really got used to was the way he could do something really hurtful and even cause someone to cry and he wouldn’t see the connection unless it was very plainly stated to him. While we were together, I just assumed he knew he was being hurtful and didn’t care/didn’t have the patience to investigate it- yet after we’d broken up, I eventually came to the conclusion that he truly didn’t see it.

    Example: if I’m really terse with someone- suppose I yell something like, “Just leave it alone, I’ll do it later!”- I will pick up on it if they shrink back because of it. And when I notice someone shrink back- that’s when I realize “oh crap, I was totally unfair right there and made this person feel like they were being unreasonable when really it’s about too many things going on in my head.” Or whatever the case is, I see the reaction and possibilities for why I caused that affect will start pouring forth- but he needs “It hurts my feelings that you’re yelling at me” stated clearly or it completely flies under his radar.

    Really, I think it’s the biggest reason it would not have worked out between us. I don’t think I could ever get used to immediately articulating “that hurt my feelings.” I can immediately articulate it in plain terms when I’m observing it happen in someone else: if he snapped, I would notice the other person shrinking back and I’d pull him aside to tell him- and when I did, he always showed concern and wanted to amend it. <- That is how I came to the conclusion that he actually just truly didn’t see it. Because it did seem to take him by surprise. That’s so foreign to me, I don’t begin to understand needing things plainly stated like that and it would never ever occur to me to actually state something like that aloud about my own experience. It’s easy to articulate when I’m not the one experiencing it, which is why I can be a good mediator for him regarding other people- but when I am upset myself, I can't begin to articulate it.

    I want to liken it to being rushed into an emergency room- because, say, my arm got ripped off by a polar bear- and having the person behind the desk say “take a number” and point me in the direction of the waiting area. It would never occur to me that they actually need me to say “I am bleeding profusely, and also I am missing an arm.” I would take their behavior to mean something like, “Yes I see you are bleeding, and missing an arm, we will get to you as soon as we can.” But that’s not what it means at all. [And an unfortunate twist to this language barrier is that I think it actually feels (to Fe/Ti'ers) like we're treating people like they're stupid to lay things out like that.]

    eta: I should add, I realize that one eNTJ ex-husband doesn't make for a very good sample size for generalized statements. I'm just trying to explain the "cluelessness" as I've experienced it. And frankly the INTJs here seem more aware than the few I've known irl.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    That's a good question. I don't know if it's a result of Ni+Te or Ni+(lack of)Fe or something else. To me it seems that Te people are quite focused on 'face value' details -- which is what I perceive as literalness. I know you've corrected me on this before, and perhaps it's not the best word, but I really can't think of a better term to describe how I feel. Even my INFP boyfriend, with inferior Te, has a degree of 'literalness' when he interprets my words. For example, my habitual "no" at the beginning of the sentence can signal an added detail or a slight shift in perspective of what is to follow, but INFP always interpreted it as "disagreement". So for ages he thought I was disagreeing with him, when I was actually agreeing. In the same situation, maybe another Fe user would pay more attention to my tone of voice and the direction the conversation was going, and that would override the literal meaning of "no" and they would come to the conclusion that I was in agreement.

    I think a lot of the time people don't mean what they say, but their real meanings can be discerned from how they say it, when they say it, how often they say it -- the whole context. I might be wrong about this, but maybe Te is more focused on the 'what' aspect and tends to disregard other clues?
    Perhaps YOU can discern the "real" meaning from these other cues, but not everyone can. At least for me, Te is focused on the content of what someone says. It is the only thing I can rely on; everything else feels like guesswork. Sometimes I do get a feeling that someone doesn't really mean what they are saying, but if I cannot rely on their words, even less can I rely on anything else about the interaction. I can point out that I think they are not being candid and ask what they really mean, but that feels like an unsupported accusation. I could be wrong, and they really did mean what they said. So, I give them the benefit of the doubt and take their statement at face value - perhaps the "literal" aspect you see. I have never understood why someone would say something they do not mean, unless they are deliberately trying to lie. In reverse, I also expect people to take what I say at face value. One of my pet peeves is when someone tries to "read into" my comment or behavior something that is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I might understand what you’re getting at here. Maybe. With my ex, something that I never really got used to was the way he could do something really hurtful and even cause someone to cry and he wouldn’t see the connection unless it was very plainly stated to him. While we were together, I just assumed he knew he was being hurtful and didn’t care/didn’t have the patience to investigate it- yet after we’d broken up, I eventually came to the conclusion that he truly didn’t see it.

    Example: if I’m really terse with someone- suppose I yell something like, “Just leave it alone, I’ll do it later!”- I will pick up on it if they shrink back because of it. And when I notice someone shrink back- that’s when I realize “oh crap, I was totally unfair right there and made this person feel like they were being unreasonable when really it’s about too many things going on in my head.” Or whatever the case is, I see the reaction and possibilities for why I caused that affect will start pouring forth- but he needs “It hurts my feelings that you’re yelling at me” stated clearly or it completely flies under his radar.
    This is exactly what happens. Again, I might sense something odd about the person's reaction, but reactions can be caused by many things. When I do ask, it is rarely related to what I think the cause is (or the person is not being truthful). I assume if I did something the person doesn't like, they will tell me so, just as I would do for them. To look at your example with the roles reversed, if someone snaps at me that way, I consider first the content: does it make sense for me to leave it for them to do later? If not, I will address this, but either way, I will attribute their raised voice, etc. to whatever is going on with them today, and go about my business.

    Even in your emergency room example, it is wise to point out to that number-dispensing receptionist the nature of your injury. Most ERs operate on a triage system, which requires some knowledge of each patient's problem, which may not be obvious if you just show up with a bundled up arm-stump. There are plenty of cases of people who got worse or even died from being overlooked, or who avoided such a fate by speaking up.

    P.S. What type was your ex?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #26
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Tangent: sometimes INTJs don't even seem all that "thinky." In associating with a group of them, I notice a lot of knee-jerk discounting of other people's ideas on the grounds of "logical fallacy, therefore untrue, therefore you're wrong." Sometimes it seems like the effort is "how fast can I prove this person wrong," rather than "how can I understand what this person is trying to contribute," so the effect is really UN-thinky.

    Also, yes, I think "intuitive" to the lay person gets lumped in with "feely people person," so it's not a word that jumps to mind in reference to someone to whom you have to articulate why you are crying after they yelled at you. :-)

  7. #27
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Even in your emergency room example, it is wise to point out to that number-dispensing receptionist the nature of your injury. Most ERs operate on a triage system, which requires some knowledge of each patient's problem, which may not be obvious if you just show up with a bundled up arm-stump. There are plenty of cases of people who got worse or even died from being overlooked, or who avoided such a fate by speaking up.

    P.S. What type was your ex?
    I do agree that, to a certain extent, it's important to be able to explain the nature of the injury. But I think the crux of the problem is understanding how much isn't obvious. When I walk through the door- and get passed a number and told to sit down in the waiting area- I assume a ballpark estimate has been made of the injury (and the subtext I hear in 'go sit in the corner and try not to bleed to death' is that I'm not very important- but in truth, no estimate was made because there was an assumption on his end that I'd say something if it was important (?), or something). The thing about speaking up- if I have a job to do and someone gets in my way expecting special treatment, it annoys me and makes the job more difficult. I don't want to be 'that person'. So I feel the need to pay attention before speaking up- like if I notice people getting priority medical attention for paper cuts, then yeah, I'll say something. But for the most part- I don't want to get in the way, my assumption is that they notice a 'ballpark' and that they'll iron out the particulars (collect more specific knowledge about this specific injury) on their own terms, with their own questions.

    My ex identifies as INTJ. He has told me that he tests practically on the E/I cusp though, and I personally think he's slightly more E. But I also think he's e8, which could probably make an INTJ come across as more forceful. So . He's NTJ, that's all I know for sure.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    So I feel the need to pay attention before speaking up- like if I notice people getting priority medical attention for paper cuts, then yeah, I'll say something. But for the most part- I don't want to get in the way, my assumption is that they notice a 'ballpark' and that they'll iron out the particulars (collect more specific knowledge about this specific injury) on their own terms, with their own questions.
    See - this is the question, whether it is better to risk making the staff upset by distracting them, or to risk further harm to yourself through inaction. Te will evaluate: there is a receptionist. She is not involved in direct patient care. If I give her a 30-second summary of why I'm here as I take that number, I will be sure she at least has the necessary information to triage me correctly. Yes, she may be busy, too, and annoyed at having to pay attention to me, but I will evaluate that as the lesser risk. (I also know enough to thank her for her help when I am called for my turn, or when I'm ready to leave.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    This is why associating with INTJs is helpful to INFJs -- it forces us to articulate, which becomes easier with practice.

  10. #30
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Perhaps YOU can discern the "real" meaning from these other cues, but not everyone can. At least for me, Te is focused on the content of what someone says. It is the only thing I can rely on; everything else feels like guesswork. Sometimes I do get a feeling that someone doesn't really mean what they are saying, but if I cannot rely on their words, even less can I rely on anything else about the interaction. I can point out that I think they are not being candid and ask what they really mean, but that feels like an unsupported accusation. I could be wrong, and they really did mean what they said. So, I give them the benefit of the doubt and take their statement at face value - perhaps the "literal" aspect you see. I have never understood why someone would say something they do not mean, unless they are deliberately trying to lie. In reverse, I also expect people to take what I say at face value. One of my pet peeves is when someone tries to "read into" my comment or behavior something that is not there.
    I understand your frustration. It took me the longest time to finally realize that some people really mean exactly what they say. That was a totally foreign concept for my Fe to comprehend. Growing up in an Fe family, I was trained to always look for clues and anticipate people's intentions.

    Now I have developed a switch-on/switch-off mode for context-scanning, so as long as I guessed the type of the person I'm dealing with correctly, communication can go smoothly.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

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