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  1. #11
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Wait...were you having an argument and she said "you're clueless about people"?

    Cause, ahem, that might mean she's bringing up the topic as a conduit to say how she's pissed about something. Personal like.
    Yes, that crossed my mind as a possibility too.

    A way of saying - you're not seeing this specific thing about me or these people or this situation, without saying it directly? 'Clueless' seems like a pretty big word to throw out there on the topic. idk, just a thought.

    Or, a 'writing-off' of opinion if the clueless comment was made with a joking tone.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Carl Sagan is actually listed under the Famous ENTJs on the Celebrity Types website.

    I think this is a likely type for him. He's actually a very personable person, and also is obsessed with finding evidence or working applications for pretty much everything, which even seems to come before the visions themselves, and this seems to me more like an ENTJ thing than an INTJ one but (as Sagan himself likes to say), I could be wrong.
    That is possible, but I would say in his series, "Cosmos" he comes across extremely Ni-dom. I was thinking INFJ is even a possibility in terms of trying to connect with people very different from himself. There is zero abrasiveness or even complete focus on the knowledge of others, but he poses many questions and tries to connect a sense of everything, which all seems very Ni to me. There is also a quietness and gentleness to his demeanor that is low energy like some introverts. He loves the whimsy of his imagination ship that takes off and explores the nature of reality. I never knew him personally or what he was like in his personal life, but what he presented in that program was Ni-dom that included either a high level of Fi or possibly Fe-aux. I consider him a kindred spirit and my imaginary father or sorts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  3. #13
    Stansmith
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    INTJs can be overbearing and alienating, while well-developed INFJs have a very charming balance between thinkiness and feelingness.

  4. #14
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    The only person I know who I'm sure about as an INTJ is my father, and my impression of him fits what others are saying. When I learned about cognitive functions, I knew right away that he was an Ni-dom; it was just then a matter of Fe or Te. Ni but with different focuses. He is blind about some things about people which I think are obvious. But then before he retired, he worked at a car company and single-handedly saved them hundreds of thousands of dollars because he kept seeing tweaks that could be done to the machinery to improve efficiency, which I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to see in that position. So, no, I don't see him as less intuitive than me.



    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That is possible, but I would say in his series, "Cosmos" he comes across extremely Ni-dom. I was thinking INFJ is even a possibility in terms of trying to connect with people very different from himself. There is zero abrasiveness or even complete focus on the knowledge of others, but he poses many questions and tries to connect a sense of everything, which all seems very Ni to me. There is also a quietness and gentleness to his demeanor that is low energy like some introverts. He loves the whimsy of his imagination ship that takes off and explores the nature of reality. I never knew him personally or what he was like in his personal life, but what he presented in that program was Ni-dom that included either a high level of Fi or possibly Fe-aux. I consider him a kindred spirit and my imaginary father or sorts.
    I've only ever read "Demon Haunted World" from Sagan, but I agree with you that he comes across as gentle and personable. I thought he could be an INFJ or even INTP. This is in contrast to books by Dawkins (who I think is probably INTJ), where his tone is more harsh and who seems to have a hard time explaining scientific things in a user-friendly way no matter how hard he tries. I want to check out more of Sagan's stuff anyway; I might get a better impression of his type later.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  5. #15
    violaine
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    I'm INFJ. My fiancé is INTJ. We are intuitive about different things. I'm intuitive about things based on emotions, i.e. people's actions and people based trends, (e.g. real estate hotspots and retail trends). And systemic things, though that doesn't feel as magical. He is more intuitive about logic based processes, e.g. troubleshooting software problems. It never really works when he applies his abilities to the world of people. It amazes me that such a smart man, (perfect SAT scores), can have his vision so obscured when it comes to people. !!! At times, I feel like Cassandra bleating into the wind when I'm talking about people with him. But then whatever has been crystal clear to me about certain people becomes clear to all and he shakes his head in wonder. I shake my head in wonder at his good sense too. Our intuition randomly intersects sometimes. That's fun.

    As an example, I knew he was "the one" after one night of conversation with him. Actually, I knew within the first 10 minutes. We met in a diner and started talking and it was like a bolt of lightning. It was weird. He felt it too, but it took him five years to figure it out properly. Now he feels like I felt back then. (And I'm so glad). But he is so wise about work and matters of science. It astounds me. (Though, he says he did talk to me first so he must have known something, heh).

  6. #16
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    OK, I'm at least getting the impression that INFJs on this forum get the concept of different kinds of intuition. I'm wondering if perhaps, if an INFJ unversed in this whole Ni with Te or Fe sort of thing might see only the NiFe version as intuition, at least at first glance. (Another possibility is identifying intuition with "wisdom" - i.e., "correct intuition" is intuitive, but incorrect intuitions are not.)

    Just kind of exploring, here. I'm not really interested in exploring the concrete case with that particular individual; it just provoked the thought. I am well aware that I leave all sorts of false impressions with people who don't know me well, yet. My fellow dancers often do not believe/realize that I'm introverted, or that I'm a nerd, and so on: they only see me dancing and fearlessly asking people to dance. Coworkers who only see the results of my analysis will only see detailed logic, not the hand-wavy intuition that led me to those conclusions. I know how most of those misunderstandings occur. This question is just another facet of the same thing, I believe.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #17
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if perhaps, if an INFJ unversed in this whole Ni with Te or Fe sort of thing might see only the NiFe version as intuition, at least at first glance. (Another possibility is identifying intuition with "wisdom" - i.e., "correct intuition" is intuitive, but incorrect intuitions are not.)
    Looking for some ‘default INFJ way of understanding intuition’ (outside of mbti functions) might be one of those things that’s analogous to trying to find a ‘default INFJ favorite color’ (meaning: there is not default related to NiFe).

    My son might be serve as an example of an INFJ unversed in Te/Fe. His father tests just barely on the 'I' side of INTJ (I think he's eNTJ, he might just be an e8 INTJ) and for years now my son has gone on a tangent to me about how his dad 'thinks like we do, but it's weird, it's all business'. So my son sees it- he just doesn’t know how to describe what ‘it’ is. His exact words are something like "I know Dad is capable of empathy, but it's weird." But he picks up on *something* in his dad that doesn't accept incoming information as is, that it gets tweaked in the same way, yet it doesn't happen to information about people. (Or at least, it doesn't happen in practice- it happens 'in theory', which is what makes it "weird".)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I sometimes feel like they can't always see through certain people, but I've concluded that perhaps we are just attracted to different things.
    I think you're right about this. When you get burned enough times, you get a little better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    IYes, INTJs can be a little clueless about people, especially when they try to interpret people with Te and not Fi.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    He is blind about some things about people which I think are obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    It never really works when he applies his abilities to the world of people. It amazes me that such a smart man, (perfect SAT scores), can have his vision so obscured when it comes to people. !!! At times, I feel like Cassandra bleating into the wind when I'm talking about people with him. But then whatever has been crystal clear to me about certain people becomes clear to all and he shakes his head in wonder.
    This is why I got into typology. It was a way of attempting to compensate for some of these weaknesses which I perceived as a serious impediment at work.

    I believe the Fe can be attractive to an INTJ because it is a very different perspective which stimulates their thinking. There is a certain respect for the perspective if you can appreciate the difference.

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  9. #19
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Can you give an example of this?
    I've seen INTJs ascribe bizarre motivations to people's behaviors, which can be entirely logical, but somehow feel 'off' to me -- like "This happens, and then this also happens, then that happens, therefore the truth must be X!", which leaves me wondering "What about possibility Y, Z, A, B, C...?" One INTJ I knew believed a girl he liked had feelings for him because they had been talking more than usual and because she used a picture of her and her friend, who was his ex and 'first love', as her profile picture. I know INFJs do these strange 'leaps' as well, but the "this" and "that" that lead to the conclusion will be different.
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  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I've seen INTJs ascribe bizarre motivations to people's behaviors, which can be entirely logical, but somehow feel 'off' to me -- like "This happens, and then this also happens, then that happens, therefore the truth must be X!", which leaves me wondering "What about possibility Y, Z, A, B, C...?" One INTJ I knew believed a girl he liked had feelings for him because they had been talking more than usual and because she used a picture of her and her friend, who was his ex and 'first love', as her profile picture. I know INFJs do these strange 'leaps' as well, but the "this" and "that" that lead to the conclusion will be different.
    Would you say this is trying to interpret people using Te, or trying to use Fi (or even Fe) and doing it badly?

    I almost see what you mean. I know I sometimes try to predict outcomes (he will do X because of reasons A, B, and C), and someone will tell me some quite different outcome will happen based on other reasons which, to me, seem quite "unreasonable". In other words, I would never even have taken those motivations into account. Often they are correct, and I am left wondering what the connection was; how P and Q could have outweighed A, B, and C to lead to Q instead of X.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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