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  1. #31
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's necessarily low self esteem, it's the idea that NFs can get really really down without support for their ideals. Not only do you feel like you have a stupid idea, but then then if you're a particularly introspective NF, it starts into the huge downward spiral of starting to dissect everything and you start feeling guilty and meaningless and.. lemme just see if I can't find the quote I'm paraphrasing..

    From "Portrait of an INFJ"
    ...have a tendency to become severely depressed when their ideals go unfulfilled. It is amazing how quickly the INFJ's rich inner imagination can turn to discouragement when others don't readily support their cause. That which was inspiration now spirals ever inward toward self-punishment and deep-seated feelings of failure. Guilt becomes overriding and depression abounds. In such cases the INFJ tends to distort reality and to bury his or herself in a barrage of despair ending in, "No one gives a damn. How foolish of me to have thought otherwise."
    This is from an INFJ profile, obviously, but I'd imagine any idealist could fall into a similar trap.

    EDIT: expanding on what Pink said. XD
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

    Member of the Maverick's Biker Club - Now crashing through walls instead of just..walking into them.

  2. #32
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Isn't self-esteem more of a nurture than nature issue? If you are hardwired at an early age to think badly of yourself, or if you experience failures in life, isn't that what causes poor self image? The presence/absence of confidence seems environmentally caused, and the different types show different ways that is processed.

    Same issue with sensuality. I would suspect that an individual's sex drive is influence by their physiology and environmental conditioning as much as anything. The different cognitive processing styles will express that sensuality in different ways. I can see some possible validity in the idea that an iNtuitive might express their sensuality in a more abstract form like writing, but that would not always be the case. I have noticed an ability for NFs to connect sexuality to more abstract and deeply internal processes, which is different that experiencing it as an external, sensory experience primarily. If a person is imaginative by nature, then that will likely be part of their sensuality as well. But then again, there could be some NFs that use sexuality as a way to simplify and escape the complexity of their inner emotional worlds.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #33
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    More probable. For me since introversion is internal processing this means unlike extroversion I'll be less inclined to socialize and find solace in solitude. And perception leads to procrastination and being unsatisfied with lack of materialisation of ideas to action.

    And to be raised in a negative environment may quite possibly dictate your neurotransmitter response to analyse events in the same manner unless you manage to find positive influences in your life or at least be more prone to negative thoughts too.

    I've been there and threw up all over suicidal thoughts like a hamburger on cheese. Its like day of the triffides. Man, you should watch me eat those things, charcoal vegetables with chicken feet and grease.

    Sensual, yes, yes I am what of it?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    I

    This is from an INFJ profile, obviously, but I'd imagine any idealist could fall into a similar trap.
    I don't know, I have gotten a real energy rush in the past out of being the devil's advocate on a position. I think the INFJ profile is describing a reaction of a Fe idealist, which is part of the problem in lumping all NF together as unified whole.

  5. #35
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    Sarah McLachlan was also a good one.
    She is what I picture when I think of INFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sych0 View Post
    Really? Under no circumstances? I often wonder how Eric Clapton went on with life after his 4 year old son fell to his death out a window.

    That's a loss that I don't know if I'd ever be able to cope with
    I don't know because I've never experienced anything truly horrible. My inclination at the moment is to say absolutely not, but that may change with circumstance. If I were in Romeo or Juliet's place, there is no way I would have agreed to kill myself, even if the other already had.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Same issue with sensuality. I would suspect that an individual's sex drive is influence by their physiology and environmental conditioning as much as anything. The different cognitive processing styles will express that sensuality in different ways. I can see some possible validity in the idea that an iNtuitive might express their sensuality in a more abstract form like writing, but that would not always be the case. I have noticed an ability for NFs to connect sexuality to more abstract and deeply internal processes, which is different that experiencing it as an external, sensory experience primarily. If a person is imaginative by nature, then that will likely be part of their sensuality as well. But then again, there could be some NFs that use sexuality as a way to simplify and escape the complexity of their inner emotional worlds.
    That's why I thought of those musicians as NF models of sensuality. The way they present it has far less to do with 'actual' sensuality than with a sort-of abstract representation of it. One understands immediately that they mean to signify sensuality, but there is no direct reference to it in the music.
    Last edited by Orangey; 07-04-2008 at 06:43 PM.
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  6. #36
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't know, I have gotten a real energy rush in the past out of being the devil's advocate on a position. I think the INFJ profile is describing a reaction of a Fe idealist, which is part of the problem in lumping all NF together as unified whole.

    Not that I argue with fallacies becoming a problem with lumping together, that's why I mentioned that it was from an INFJ only profile, but just for further thought:

    Wouldn't playing devil's advocate *be* the ideal then? And people playing into it be support for it? When you go to do something and it works, of course that's going to be an energy rush.
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

    Member of the Maverick's Biker Club - Now crashing through walls instead of just..walking into them.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    Not that I argue with fallacies becoming a problem with lumping together, that's why I mentioned that it was from an INFJ only profile, but just for further thought:

    Wouldn't playing devil's advocate *be* the ideal then? And people playing into it be support for it? When you go to do something and it works, of course that's going to be an energy rush.
    Let me try to explain better: The ideas held weren't held for the sheer sake of going against the grain. That's a really base, lower octave kind of fake rebellion that makes me feel sort of sick inside when I see it. To react against something, merely for the sake of reacting against it, gives that something/someone more power over one than if one were being slavishly conformist in favor of it.

    There is still a sense of despair that people won't see what I think is the truth, for the sake of the state of the world, but beliving in my own ideas gives me energy to go on in that way...opposition to my ideas does not make me feel depressed about myself. It is not a happy feeling to have others disagree with me, I hate the feeling of disharmony, but it does not make me feel bad about myself just because they cannot see the truth as I see it. I get internal energy that allows me to face the opposition. But then I don't feel that it is my job to convince other people that my truth is truth. They have to find their own way, but there is a sense of despair for the world when I see that the world is going off in ways that I think are wrong. But I am not responsible for making others change and should not be, so I cannot feel bad about myself over this. I don't know if I am making myself clear enough or not.

    When I have felt depressed about myself, it has been at times when I could not deliver on what I felt I should to other people in my own actions. I only feel really bad when I feel I am not following what I feel my own standards should be. And I have experienced this. It feels awful.

  8. #38
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    From "Portrait of an INFJ"
    Quote:
    ...have a tendency to become severely depressed when their ideals go unfulfilled. It is amazing how quickly the INFJ's rich inner imagination can turn to discouragement when others don't readily support their cause. That which was inspiration now spirals ever inward toward self-punishment and deep-seated feelings of failure. Guilt becomes overriding and depression abounds. In such cases the INFJ tends to distort reality and to bury his or herself in a barrage of despair ending in, "No one gives a damn. How foolish of me to have thought otherwise."
    This is from an INFJ profile, obviously, but I'd imagine any idealist could fall into a similar trap.

    EDIT: expanding on what Pink said. XD
    I'm trying to remember if i ever thought that way. I don't now. My reaction to such a scenario is to ask why people don't give a damn? What is it about my ideal vs. theirs that doesn't line up? I would find the discrepancy intriguing and go on to analyze it. Actually, that is pretty much the predicament i find myself in, only it hits rather close to home because it affects my livelihood and income. What I have done is to analyze any discrepancy between myself and the external world, and then let go of those factors that are outside my control. This allows self to view values that fall outside our own with an understanding of why they evolved to exist in these other individuals and societies and what functions these alternate values serve. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. When we dismiss something instead of trying to understand it, we pass by an opportunity to learn and perhaps become enlightened.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #39
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Isn't self-esteem more of a nurture than nature issue? If you are hardwired at an early age to think badly of yourself, or if you experience failures in life, isn't that what causes poor self image? The presence/absence of confidence seems environmentally caused, and the different types show different ways that is processed.

    Same issue with sensuality. I would suspect that an individual's sex drive is influence by their physiology and environmental conditioning as much as anything. The different cognitive processing styles will express that sensuality in different ways. I can see some possible validity in the idea that an iNtuitive might express their sensuality in a more abstract form like writing, but that would not always be the case. I have noticed an ability for NFs to connect sexuality to more abstract and deeply internal processes, which is different that experiencing it as an external, sensory experience primarily. If a person is imaginative by nature, then that will likely be part of their sensuality as well. But then again, there could be some NFs that use sexuality as a way to simplify and escape the complexity of their inner emotional worlds.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    I think the INFJ profile is describing a reaction of a Fe idealist...
    Perhaps.

    To adress the original question, I doubt any trait is likely to be true of everyone of any group. It does seem from your small sample that ENFP's may tend to have a make-up leaving them less vulnerable to suicidal thoughts. But this is hardly a scientific sample.

    On a personal note, I've had suicidal thoughts and do not read or write erotica, but grew up reading and enjoying schlocky romances. Make of it what you will.

    Also on the note of INFJ's and what might lead them to feeling suicidal, again, I doubt anything is likely true of everyone in any group, perhaps only a disposition toward a certain kind of thought process, but my recent suicidal thoughts have to do with a sort of panicked experience of wishing my physical reality to match my internal experiential reality.

    I feel powerless to communicate my experience of self into the world in an effective way. Without reception of self in the external world I feel that my existence has no purpose or maybe even reality. The pain of not being received in the world along with the desperation of my feeling of powerlessness over being able to communicate myself in a way that others can understand or seem to care about or value is so great that sometimes I feel a panicked anxiousness to validate my perceived non-existence in the world by ending my physical presence.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
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  10. #40
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I feel powerless to communicate my experience of self into the world in an effective way. Without reception of self in the external world I feel that my existence has no purpose or maybe even reality. The pain of not being received in the world along with the desperation of my feeling of powerlessness over being able to communicate myself in a way that others can understand or seem to care about or value is so great that sometimes I feel a panicked anxiousness to validate my perceived non-existence in the world by ending my physical presence.
    Oh..

    I can certainly relate to the bolded part. In fact last night I was feeling that way, and had a small bout of anxiety that I haven't had for many months; it was weird, as I hate that feeling of anxiety - quite unpleasant -- and so my mind was going down rather well-worn thought paths where I ended up concluding that I have never really fit in with any group , or any community entirely (or fully identify with any one group). I just always feel I'm on the outskirts, and don't really belong anywhere -- which can sometimes make me feel totally alone, and also that I'm lacking some key component in being able to relate to others, or extend myself to others. That's where I then blame myself for some flaw in my behaviors or expectations that I can't quite grasp.

    Anyway - I def. don't always feel this way. Just occasionally.

    I have never contemplated suicide, however. I would never want to actively remove myself from this world. When I'm down, I guess I just kind of bunker down and grit my teeth through it. However, when I have been most low, I certainly have had thoughts that I'd be totally fine if I'd die at that point - by some external cause. But again, not by my own hands.

    Also, this might be weird, but even in my happiest moments, I have had similar thoughts -- just feeling so happy and at peace, that in that moment a part of me would be 'ok' if I just passed away, simply because I was so happy and had lived such a fulfulling life thus far.

    Self-esteem -- totally agree w/ what toonia wrote.

    Sensuality -- I consider myself to have quite the streak in me, but that's something I don't want to write about.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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