[ENFJ] ENFJ Melodrama/Despair/Ambivalence - what the heck do I do?

[Roheline]

I realize I haven't been that active on the forums lately, but I've definitely been around lurking, as I often find myself coming here for advice or comfort or even just to take my mind off of things that trouble me.

Now I would really appreciate your advice.

I am an INFP, have been dating an ENFJ (he tested ENFJ when I had him take the test about 5 months ago, and for the most part seems to fit that description though I have seen him make some surprisingly harsh judgments that have made me question it) for about 9 months now and I'm starting to get really worried about the relationship.

My biggest concern at this point is that our relationship has moved too quickly and that we don't have enough of a foundation built up to weather the kinds of stress all couples encounter after the initial glow begins to wear off. We moved in together after dating for just 5 months (not something I would normally do, but with our life circumstances it was either that or call it splits right then and there) and he has been supporting me for the past few months, which is something I hope to rectify ASAP now that I have a job and will soon see my paychecks start to roll in.

90% of the time things are absolutely wonderful--he's loving, supportive, we go out and do all kinds of fun and silly things together, cuddle for hours, but lately the dynamic has started to change. About once a week, he'll go through a day or so where he's completely down on himself and the world, cannot see any hope in anything at all, and gets into this state where he just repeatedly says "I don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do." I'm not sure if I'm finally seeing sides of him I didn't see before or if he's changed since I met him due to stress and other factors in his life. He recently turned 30, which seems to be a large stressor for him, as if he's reached some arbitrary number by which he intended to have accomplished a list of things, and he feels like a failure because he hasn't.

I guess what I want to know is how can I help him through these periods of despair where the whole world seems bleak and he loses interest in everything but how awful he feels? As an INFP, my initial impulse is to try to comfort, but maybe I'm going about it all wrong. ENFJs--when you're feeling really down, do you want to be left alone or cuddled or dragged outside and forced to be social, or something else entirely?

The other problem that I've been really struggling with in my own self has been that when he gets all down and insecure, I start to get anxious and insecure as well, and start feeling as if I'm the one to blame for his unhappiness. Which I'm sure doesn't help him at all with whatever guilt or anxiety he may be feeling, and it turns into this awful trainwreck of uncontrolled emotion and resentment. When it first started happening these episodes seemed to blow over quickly and we'd return to our normal happy relationship, but they seem to be lasting longer and longer, and last night we had one of our first legitimate fights, where I admit that I became rather nasty with him and said some things that probably sounded like an oblique threat to leave him. I really regret having made those comments, and I don't know what to do now. He's mentioned that he's been hurt in the past and he told me that almost every woman he's dated has at some point told him that "they feel like they're holding him back"; it's true, I do feel that way when he rants about how crappy his life is and then goes on about how much he loved some girl in the past and how great his life was then. He's said that those comments have always come before a breakup, and well--I'm starting to wonder if it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I realize that I really need to work on not internalizing his moods or pressing him for reassurance when he's already feeling down, because usually then his answer tends to be either an ambivalent "I don't know what I want" or a melodramatic recounting of the various wrongs I've committed against him. Lately it's gotten to a point, though, where I'm actually not sure where I stand with him and I wonder if he might actually be happier if we went our separate ways. I really really care about him, but I'm not going to sit around and wait to have my heart broken while he flails around being unhappy and then finally has some kind of epiphany that I'm not the right one for him and leaves me.

Please, ENFJs (or anyone else who has been in this situation), could I get some insights and advice? Is this one of those ENFJ just testing me out to see how loyal I am episodes or should I be legitimately worried that he seems so unhappy? I'm reaching a breaking point where nothing I do can make him feel better and he seems to be pining after something that's missing from his life and so all that's left to conclude is that I must be the cause of his misery and therefore I should leave for both of our sakes.

Help!

 

[21%]

I will respond more in detail when I get home from work, but these things stood out as warning signs to me:

He's mentioned that he's been hurt in the past and he told me that almost every woman he's dated has at some point told him that "they feel like they're holding him back"; it's true, I do feel that way when he rants about how crappy his life is and then goes on about how much he loved some girl in the past and how great his life was then.

...

I realize that I really need to work on not internalizing his moods or pressing him for reassurance when he's already feeling down, because usually then his answer tends to be either an ambivalent "I don't know what I want" or a melodramatic recounting of the various wrongs I've committed against him. Lately it's gotten to a point, though, where I'm actually not sure where I stand with him and I wonder if he might actually be happier if we went our separate ways. I really really care about him, but I'm not going to sit around and wait to have my heart broken while he flails around being unhappy and then finally has some kind of epiphany that I'm not the right one for him and leaves me.

I totally feel for you, but I think you need to consider the fact that if he is not being a manipulative jerk on purpose then he might be clinically depressed. Either way, the bolded are not the correct attitude to approach a relationship, and the real issue may run deeper than just not being happy.

More later. Meanwhile:

 

[Roheline]

Thank you.

I just graduated from college a year ago and haven't been in any one place all that long since then, and I've struggled to cultivate meaningful friendships in the town I've been living in for the past 4 months with him. Most of my existing support networks are many miles away and my usual tendency is not to want to burden other people with my life issues (especially over the phone), so I'm having a hard time getting an outside perspective on this situation. I'm trying to find a way to step back and better analyze it myself, but I find it very difficult to stay objective once I step too close to the emotional morass I've built around the situation.

Any insight you can offer would be HUGELY appreciated.

 

[skylights]

Hey [MENTION=4933]Roheline[/MENTION]. I'm not ENFJ myself, but was in a relationship with one at one point. Several thoughts.

1 - Is it possible that he is clinically depressed for some reason? You mentioned hitting 30, maybe financial stress, anxiety, ambivalence. Is there any pattern to when his "bad" days occur? Does he seem to be normal and then this hits - like happy is his baseline - or could he usually be "holding his head above the water" and sometimes he just can't stay up any longer, like he's more consistently unhappy but he tries to mask it?

2 -

A melodramatic recounting of the various wrongs I've committed against him

This needs to stop on his end; it will never be a healthy part of any relationship. If he has issues, he needs to bring them up when he's feeling positive and address them with you, instead of waiting until he's upset and using you as a scapegoat for his personal unhappiness.

3 -

He told me that almost every woman he's dated has at some point told him that 'they feel like they're holding him back'; it's true, I do feel that way when he rants about how crappy his life is and then goes on about how much he loved some girl in the past and how great his life was then.

It sounds like he might have some long-term issues with self-perception in terms of projecting his personal feelings onto his partners and using moving on from them as a way to get away from those issues, instead of actually addressing the issues. It's pretty narcissistic to think your partners are responsible for your personal growth. I could even see the possibility of him having recurrent disillusion, projecting, then cutting and running in relationships.


Interesting that I just went to read other posts in the thread and these same two quotes stood out both to myself and @21%. They are both indicative of something more serious than just a rough patch, but that's not to say they're unconquerable or that he wouldn't be interested in overcoming them.

If he can pay for therapy, it'd probably be advisable, regardless of whether he's depressed or not. It could help him sort some of those ambivalent feelings out.

As for helping stressed ENFJs, mine liked to be left alone and/or pampered (spa, etc.). But if he's depressed, leaving him alone might not be what he needs.

As for you, I think an interior ultimatum might be useful. Give him a few months and do everything you can to help him address this. If nothing's changed, and if he's not putting in effort to make your life better too, head for greener pastures.

 

[Istbkleta]

1. Whining and complaining and drama queen - PERFECTLY NORMAL for Fe. All emotions are put out there, processed and sometimes even forgotten (just the everyday ones, not "my life sux"). This can be VERY irritating/frustrating/nasty to the people around but there is no way around it.
If your Fi spends a night tossing and turning and crying, while processing stuff, his Fe will spend a night talking (aka whining/complaining). My condolences, that's why (and bullying/manipulation) I stay away from dom Fe-s.

2. I don't know what to do / I'm not doing it right/perfect MIGHT be his inferior Ti. Ti is perfectionistic and can lead to some pretty tough standards for the self. INFJs sometimes get down on themselves in a similar way, including "I don't understand " / "I'm incompetent/stupid", etc. He might get "tough", make cold, uncaring decisions about people and himself, etc. based on am IMMATURE Ti.
You should have similar experiences with your own Te.

Cheers!

If you find a way to make it work with an ENFJ - share. I haven't.

 

[Roheline]

Wow, you guys have really hit the nail on the head with some of your comments...bringing up things that I didn't even mention in my post but that ring very true with what I've observed!

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]:
1 - I'm sort-of wondering if it's the latter. He seems to stay in a fairly good mood throughout the week and if we keep busy during the weekends, but his "bad" days seem to happen most often on Sundays, after the adventure of the weekend is over. It's like when he runs out of external distractions, he doesn't have the strength to stay up any more and just collapses into this state of despair. I've also noticed that he's been drinking more than what seemed to be his "usual" when we first started dating, though I don't know if he had different habits before I met him.

2 - I agree, though I think this one might be improved if I just stay the hell away from him when he's in his moods and sure as hell don't bring up ANYTHING remotely related to our relationship.

3 - I've definitely had some moments where he divulged some detail about his past romances and part of me went "what the hell?!" all while trying to be supportive. I remember one night in particular after he'd drank a fair amount he told me that his family had "abandoned" him when he was in his lower twenties and so he found a "new family" in two female friends who happened to be sisters (whom he then dated...apparently both of them, at different times). I was trying to be empathetic to all of this, but I've spent a fair amount of time with his family and while they can definitely be overbearing at times, they really don't seem like the type to "abandon" him. And I wonder if maybe they expressed some kind of disapproval of his life choices which he then blew out of proportion and turned into abandonment? And these women were apparently the most amazing women he's ever known (gee, thanks man), but not amazing enough that he was willing to change his own life to try to be with them after they moved away to different cities. It's like he has this perception that all these people in his life keep leaving him, when all the while he's lusting after something else and continually driving them away.

[MENTION=13880]Istbkleta[/MENTION]:
Really keen observation about the differences between Fe and Fi. What worries me is that I really can't tell if his ranting is the revelation of an ongoing state that's usually hidden or if his entire perception changes when he's in these moods but then rights itself. Is he constantly resenting me for all these little things but not showing it? When he's happy it's like I'm the brightest star in the universe, when he's in a foul mood I feel like some interloper who forced her way into his life and is making him miserable and preventing him from doing what he wants to do. Do his feelings actually change that much from day to day, or is he hiding unhappiness under some fake veneer of happiness (designed to keep me safe or something?)? All this uncertainty is starting to diminish my ability to maintain any kind of feelings for him or trust in anything he tells me about his emotions. I'm not sure what worries me more, if he's been resenting me all this time, or if his feelings are actually that volatile.

I think you are right on with the inferior Ti. When he's in his moods he seems to swap between self-loathing and self-incrimination ("I'm a failure; I've done nothing with my life") and lashing out at me with a kind of cold harsh logic that's rather shocking compared to his usual self and makes me want to just run into the next room (or maybe the next state!).

 

[skylights]

[MENTION=4933]Roheline[/MENTION] -

The feelings of abandonment... needing constant external stimulation... getting close quickly... you being his brightest star and worst mistake... volatility...

Have you considered BPD?

 

[Istbkleta]

He seems like a perfectly normal ENFJ to me.

If anything, there is something off about the OP herself.

 

[Glycerine]

@Roheline -

The feelings of abandonment... needing constant external stimulation... getting close quickly... you being his brightest star and worst mistake... volatility...

Have you considered BPD?

yeah...the behavior sounds more like mental health issues than his type.

Could be a mood or anxiety disorder or BPD. If it's chronic, he has issues. Abandonment issues and the constant push and pull probably means he has trust and intimacy issues.

IT SHOULD NOT BE NORMALIZED AS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FE AND FI.

 

[21%]

Have you considered BPD?

I was thinking the same thing!
[MENTION=4933]Roheline[/MENTION]
There is one thing that is very important that you need to understand about relationships: each partner is responsible for their own happiness. If they are not happy for any reason, it is their responsibility to bring up issues and communicate with their partner. This may sound like common sense, but it took me 4 years to realize it.

What you are feeling right now is exactly how I felt when my INFP boyfriend was going through depression. I wondered if I was the cause of his unhappiness, or if he would be better off without me. I felt like he secretly blamed me for everything and that made me feel horrible about myself.

However, this is not true. Depressed people tend to lash out at people around them, but deep down what they really hate is themselves. It was only less than a year ago that I read a book on depression and finally realized how to deal with it. The key is not to let it affect me. I have learned that his moods do not have anything to do with me. It is all about him, and if I love him, part of it is to understand this and not get hurt. It's like when a child throws a tantrum and says "I hate you". Loving, mature parents will reply "It's ok. I still love you."

The funny thing is, people on this forum had been telling me the whole time that I was not responsible for his happiness. It just took me four years to really understand what it means.

There are also some other points that might help:

Draw the line
You have the right to draw the line. I know you are trying to be supportive, but I have learned that when dealing with unhealthy people, you really cannot just let things slide 'because they were unhappy'. If he treats you badly, call him out on it. If you do not want to hear about how happy his ex's used to make him, let him know, and tell him how you feel about it. You have the right to. Even if you let things slide 'in the moment', bring them up later when he is ready to listen, in a calm, non-accusing manner. Say things like "You know, when you said that, it made me feel bad, because..."

Also, for 'double-standard' behaviors, ask him how he would feel if you did the same thing to him. It is okay to be direct about this. Ask him how he would feel if you started talking about how good your life was before you met him.

I think this is about treating both of you with respect. If I am behaving badly, I would want my partner to talk to me about it, because that shows that he respects me as a partner and that he knows I am responsible for my half of the relationship. It's all part of communication.

Unhealthy people and their issues
If he does not respond to these attempts to fix things in a calm way, but starts acting immaturely by bringing up excuses, talking as if he is entitled to acting badly because he was 'stressed', or trying to turn it into your fault, you are dealing with something deeper here. Unhealthy people will be unhealthy, and most of the time they burn the people who are closest to them. They may genuinely care about you, but they cannot help themselves. You need to really think if you want to get involved in all this. Sometimes, if one partner is unhealthy and does not seek help to become healthier, no matter what you do, you will never have a happy relationship.

People committed to healthy relationships will actually try to listen, apologize when they are in the wrong, and strive for better understanding and communication.

Be happy on your own
This is also a strange thing to say, and this also took me ages to learn. Only when you are happy on your own can you be truly happy in a relationship. I did not believe it at first. I thought that if both partners really care about each other, then you can be happy. While this may be true, it is not all there is. You can care about each other, but if both of you have to depend on each other to be happy, you create a sort of a clingy, dependent relationship that will be filled with jealousy, insecurity and hurt feelings.

I used to think that it was romantic if two people need each other. Now I think it is actually more romantic if two people choose each other. You love this other person out of your own free will, not because of your emotional needs. Only then you can truly see them and love them for who they are. I don't think I'm totally there yet in my own relationship, but I feel like I would like to get there eventually.

 

[21%]

IT SHOULD NOT BE NORMALIZED AS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FE AND FI.

[MENTION=4933]Roheline[/MENTION]
However, the difference between Fe and Fi is real and sometimes you need a lot of adjusting. If that is the case (which I don't think it is), feel free to ask away. There are loads of threads about Fi/Fe communication issues.

 

[Roheline]

Thanks, guys.


For the moment I've decided to try to back way off and give him more space and time by himself, to the extent that I can while we're living together (probably more weekends where I insist that we go off and have separate adventures or just have more time to ourselves). Maybe we both just need time to reassess the relationship and see if it's something we want to continue with.

I've only been in a few longer-term relationships (though they were all very positive experiences and left me only better as a person...not much baggage there) before this one and so I admit that my own issues and relative inexperience are certainly contributing to our problems and that I need to try to be more objective and less sensitive.

I often have this feeling that despite everything I do to try to be supportive and show that I care, I'm somehow still missing the mark in terms of what he needs. Anyone else here who has cared about an ENFJ have advice on what kind of support they want from their loved ones when they're down?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Through the lens of Fe, every action you take is going to have meaning to him and he's going to likely go with the most negative interpretation based upon your descriptions of his current state of mind. You backing off will more likely send a message of you backing away, even if you state otherwise.

So, the first thing you need to do imo is decide if you want to be with this man at least for the short term. If the answer is yes, then you need to invest the time with these great big feelings of his to help him examine their origins. imo, this is not the time to back away, but of course you know the situation best and I won't presume to know any better.

But just as fyi, since he is Fe dom, he will tend to look first to the outside world to blame something OUT THERE for making him feel bad. Because you are Fi dom, you may tend to look to the INSIDE first and conclude if he's upset with anything or with you, then you must be at fault, and you are more likely to blame yourself. You might find yourself apologetic for things that you really don't own here. It will feed the cycle of this blame game.

The best way that you as an Fi dom can support an Fe dom is take the position that when they are venting out all this negative emotion, it's not about you. Let me repeat: it's not about you.

(Oh, it might be about you at the end, but if you can't manage the out-lash of negative stuff off the hop, you'll not get to the point where there's some examination of the interior of this man and you won't be able to use your own intuition because you'll be too busy focussing on how you feel.)

As an Fi dom, you may over time find yourself challenged by Fe standards. Challenged that everything you do is catalogued away in that heart of theirs as you supporting them or not supporting them. The upside is that the love you receive will be incredibly warm and supportive of you personally. Every relationship comes with pros and cons, so if you feel strongly about this guy, you will need to appear to be in the ring, on his side, and if he's facing depression or another challenge to say it straight out how you feel about his behaviour of late, and that professional assistance might be in order.

Good luck to you!

 

[LittleV]

As a habitual Fe-user, an E2 after 4 and someone who’s close with a couple ENFJ’s… I will note that he may lack the maturity to be a long-term partner if he cannot handle his own emotions and is burdening you. If he is ‘healthy’ and not suffering from some form of mental illness, then this is still a turning point. If things are shifting this drastically, the chances are they have to do with the relationship; otherwise, outside stressors would be brought up without personal resistance. If I were you, I’d tell him that I had noticed changes in the relationship… and, whatever the reasons may be, that the relationship may not stand the test of time if communication would stay this rocky. Mention that you’d need his help in order to help the both of you. If I’d rant, it’d be often due to an ongoing state that I’d want to be rid of. I do try to hide dissatisfaction… and then they might all come out during one go. The best someone could do for me during those times is to openly communicate with me and supportively ask me what may be wrong. If I’d be blatantly unyielding, then at that point, it’d be best to leave me alone… (sometimes for good)… or I could become resentful/frustrated or emotionally checkout.

Now, based on the ENFJ’s I know… you must first find out whether his issues pertain to the relationship and whether he is trying to make excuses for drifting away, before you either distance yourself or lend support. If he is turning away… there are only so many things you could assess/do in order to mend things (e.g. effective communication, conflict resolution, etc.)… and they’d have to be done sooner rather than later. But if you’d want to show general support as a couple while gauging whether his behavior would change, you could surprise him with a mini-trip or gift, and reiterate to him how much he means to you. Reaffirming him about the positives of your relationship (and you) could help correct things (and enliven the spark) and provide him with the support any person with a heart would appreciate. Just keep in the mind of the possibility and repercussions of him not being ‘healthy.’ Good luck and take care.

 

[21%]

Listen to Peacebaby. She is wise

Through the lens of Fe, every action you take is going to have meaning to him and he's going to likely go with the most negative interpretation based upon your descriptions of his current state of mind. You backing off will more likely send a message of you backing away, even if you state otherwise.

This is spot on. As an Fe person, I don't want space. I want us to work things out.

What I love about my INFP is that he is always there. I know I can be emotional and dramatic, but when I'm having a crying bout like it's the end of the world, he just listens and says it's going to be okay, and that is usually enough for me.

However, I do take care not to make it so that he can jump to the conclusion that I am unhappy with him in anyway. Any responsible Fe user will try to do this. I will clearly identify the specific problems, or at least try to reach some understanding of why I am feeling terrible, during the course of my 'venting'. Most of the time, it is not "me against the universe", it's "me and him against the universe".

Maybe this is why I saw red flags in your original post when he starts listing your wrongs against him. It is entirely possible that he is not thinking clearly and is overwhelmed by emotions or stress at the point and forgets to think about your feelings. One clear telling sign might be how he reacts when you try to address these problems. If he is sincerely sorry (and shocked -- since Fe users usually consider themselves very sensitive and caring), there is a good chance he will try to be more considerate in the future. If not, then maybe it is time to rethink the relationship.