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View Poll Results: What bothers you the most?

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31. You may not vote on this poll
  • selfishness

    4 12.90%
  • arrogance

    7 22.58%
  • insensitivity

    4 12.90%
  • immaturity

    1 3.23%
  • rigidity

    3 9.68%
  • detachment/apathy

    6 19.35%
  • Other (Explain!)

    6 19.35%
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  1. #51
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I voted: Other. Constant Monty Python and Simpsons references, just drives me up the wall.

  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I voted: Other. Constant Monty Python and Simpsons references, just drives me up the wall.


    No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, Smithers.

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    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That should read.... discomfort with "INTPs". I don't claim to have any ideas about how they react to other NTs, only how they react to me and other INTPs.
    hmm, probably much of the same attributes on the list (childishness being my #1 nohari, which is quite close to immaturity). but i admire that you would feel lacking enough data to test your theory in regards to other types.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    This is why I'm working on my poker face, so I can feel puppy-eyed on the inside without others knowing. Honestly, I find that there's not a lot I can do about my emotions most of the time. I find that the best thing to do is to just ride them out. Sometimes bouncing ideas around with others to see if shit is just in my head helps, although not always.
    well, at this point she doesn't really need to adapt to the behavior of any other type - INTPs are in the majority. see, with the exception of one male FJ of some sort (i think N but i'm not sure), three INTJs and a handful of ISTPs, me and one other ENTP, all the other non-INTP have flunked long ago... i am living in an INTP world right now - i am the one who need to learn to adapt to your ways and customs

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've noticed this online also. I'm come to think that it makes no sense to claim objectivity, and when one does, it is a sign of lacking it. It should be self-evident if it is actually the case.
    interesting

    i would find that principle more applicable in regards to traits which are themselves measured by one's ability to impact the subjective experience of others - kindness, compassion, friendliness... hell, even being funny is measured by the experience of others, so that's in there too.

    but to assume that objectivity should be self-evident assumes an objective observer. thinking of the negative social reaction to people which proved to be rather objective, like newton or galileo, or even alfred wegener (within the scientific community), it seems clear that their objectivity was not self evident at the time. i would go a step further and say that in order for anyone to be correct about anything one must assume that most people are wrong.

  4. #54
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    interesting

    i would find that principle more applicable in regards to traits which are themselves measured by one's ability to impact the subjective experience of others - kindness, compassion, friendliness... hell, even being funny is measured by the experience of others, so that's in there too.

    but to assume that objectivity should be self-evident assumes an objective observer. thinking of the negative social reaction to people which proved to be rather objective, like newton or galileo, or even alfred wegener (within the scientific community), it seems clear that their objectivity was not self evident at the time. i would go a step further and say that in order for anyone to be correct about anything one must assume that most people are wrong.
    That makes sense. I was referring mostly to debates in which one person says, "my post is objective and you are wrong", or some variation of it. It is close to meaningless to just make the claim, but rather it should be demonstrated in terms of ideas. I find the irony frustrating in debate because it only means "I think I'm objective, I'm not going to demonstrate how, and I expect you to take that on blind faith or in the face of me demonstrating the opposite".
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #55
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    I don't like being "put down" when an INTP gets distracted. It's like, "squirrel" and then everything about the social dynamic I've worked so hard to build up with them is gone. There is no such thing as social currency to an INTP.
    I think you're on to something. Care to explain how does that social currency thing works for you?

    I think if they're around you long enough, they just get used to you and that inferior Fe kicks in and then they're like: "whaaa, where'd you go while I was working on solving the fractle equation of binary suppositions to save the universe just now?"
    Hah, nice. Systems are usually more interesting than people.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  6. #56
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think you're on to something. Care to explain how does that social currency thing works for you?


    Hah, nice. Systems are usually more interesting than people.
    Yeah, my pleasure. Social currency for me is a system; when I see a person that appeals to me in some way, I invest time with them and engage them socially in order to emotionally bond and create a closer relationship.

    With INTPs and ISTPs, I've noticed that emotional bonding doesn't occur on their end, except over a large amount of time spent consistently together. The term "bond" also implies a connection which isn't easily broken...

    For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond, they will, with enough time and investment, become some of my loyalist friends.

    Ex. 1- My former college roommate Stephen (ISTP) and I (ENFJ) can pick up at the deep level of friendship where we left off after not having spoken to each other for a year and a half.
    Ex. 2- My best friend AJ (INTP) went through something similar upon his semester-length absence finishing his incomplete senior year of college.

    New Conclusion: I suppose then it is accurate to say that social currency is a very Fe concept... I've seen I*TPs occasionally use it to their advantage when trying to achieve social goals. My main conclusion, however, after thinking this out, is that you can bond with an I*TP, it just takes more time and resources than it does with most people. After that happens, however, it's probably one of the most fulfilling relationships an ENFJ can have, in social and I assume (though I've never had the pleasure) romantic realms.
    Love is the point.

  7. #57
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond,
    i think we're slow to respond because we have a tendency to view the ease, straightforwardness and speed of the Fe dom with suspicion. Actually, at the beginning of any relationship or potential relationship, I can't help but think "sure, you find me awesome now, but what will happen when you get to know me better?"

    This is especially true with dating, since people (or women, anyway) can go from hot to cold so quickly, over things that I regard as insignificant.

    There's an expectation that I act "genuine" but also follow certain unexpressed arbitrary rules about what is appropriate to discuss at any given stage. We're really just talking about personal preferences, but they are treated by the other party like "universals" that "everyone should know."
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  8. #58
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    That makes sense. I was referring mostly to debates in which one person says, "my post is objective and you are wrong", or some variation of it. It is close to meaningless to just make the claim, but rather it should be demonstrated in terms of ideas. I find the irony frustrating in debate because it only means "I think I'm objective, I'm not going to demonstrate how, and I expect you to take that on blind faith or in the face of me demonstrating the opposite".
    I agree with you. Truth must be demonstrated to be such, not declared as such. Anyone can claim anything is objective and true, but that does not make so. I try to avoid doing that, because I would say it's a pet peeve of mine.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  9. #59
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    Yeah, my pleasure. Social currency for me is a system; when I see a person that appeals to me in some way, I invest time with them and engage them socially in order to emotionally bond and create a closer relationship.

    With INTPs and ISTPs, I've noticed that emotional bonding doesn't occur on their end, except over a large amount of time spent consistently together. The term "bond" also implies a connection which isn't easily broken...

    For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond, they will, with enough time and investment, become some of my loyalist friends.

    Ex. 1- My former college roommate Stephen (ISTP) and I (ENFJ) can pick up at the deep level of friendship where we left off after not having spoken to each other for a year and a half.
    Ex. 2- My best friend AJ (INTP) went through something similar upon his semester-length absence finishing his incomplete senior year of college.

    New Conclusion: I suppose then it is accurate to say that social currency is a very Fe concept... I've seen I*TPs occasionally use it to their advantage when trying to achieve social goals. My main conclusion, however, after thinking this out, is that you can bond with an I*TP, it just takes more time and resources than it does with most people. After that happens, however, it's probably one of the most fulfilling relationships an ENFJ can have, in social and I assume (though I've never had the pleasure) romantic realms.
    Very interesting.

    Most Fe-doms I've met seem to have a lot of acquaintances, so I tend to intuitively assume that my relationship with them won't get to be very meaningful, as I demand a relatively high priority in order to call someone a friend.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #60
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    i think we're slow to respond because we have a tendency to view the ease, straightforwardness and speed of the Fe dom with suspicion. Actually, at the beginning of any relationship or potential relationship, I can't help but think "sure, you find me awesome now, but what will happen when you get to know me better?"
    Can I betray my own here and say you're right to be suspicious...it is a weakness of my type to find things interesting for a minute and then to move on. I've never had this issue with an INTP, however, healthy or unhealthy...you keep me laughing and interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    but what will happen when you get to know me better?"
    Are you asking this because you've noticed ENFJs are flighty at times, or because you've noticed that they see something in you that they don't like? PM me if you'd like to talk this out. I'm curious to see if there's an emotional block with you that might prevent you from connecting.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    There's an expectation that I act "genuine" but also follow certain unexpressed arbitrary rules about what is appropriate to discuss at any given stage. We're really just talking about personal preferences, but they are treated by the other party like "universals" that "everyone should know."

    This is especially true with dating, since people (or women, anyway) can go from hot to cold so quickly, over things that I regard as insignificant.
    This is another ENFJ weakpoint. Fe leads often make grand and sweeping statements as a matter of habit because we're communally minded--ENFJs make assumptions about what people can see or can't see because interpersonal relationships appear to be so clear to us (it must be obvious [Ni]...to everybody! [Fe]). This is not the case for you.

    This problem, thankfully, is easily solved with a little patience and communication. Try telling her, "Sweetheart [the ENFJ folk love pet names, they demonstrate emotional care], I didn't know about that. I don't have your instincts for things like this, can you please explain?" Not only will she be grateful that you took the time to understand, but in learning to communicate with you, she's sharpening her Ti-skills, so in the interaction you basically learn to communicate with one another. ...that is of course, if you can stay calm and realize that a.) emotions aren't a bad thing, and b.) she's logical if you dig far enough, she's just got a hard time expressing it just like you've got a hard time expressing your emotions.

    If she's too immature to explain it to you, dump her. Note I'm making a distinction between "not willing to explain it" and "not able to explain it". Sometimes an ENFJ needs to talk out her thoughts out loud in order to arrive at a logical junction where things either a.) make sense, or b.) get discarded when an idea that makes "more sense" (is logically satisfying) comes along.

    I would highly recommend that it would be in your best sexual interests that you start trying to figure out why your ENFJ women care about something. I guarantee with a little digging, you'll either understand and adopt what she cares about (because it's logical), or you'll explain why you think it might be better if she looked at it in a logical way...just like you do. 9/10 as long as you treat them well emotionally, ENFJs will learn to speak your language logically and you both bring each other to growth points and greater happiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Very interesting.

    Most Fe-doms I've met seem to have a lot of acquaintances, so I tend to intuitively assume that my relationship with them won't get to be very meaningful, as I demand a relatively high priority in order to call someone a friend.
    Mmhmm,
    ENFJs order things in what's called "interrupt priority"...whatever just flagged them down is what their "squirrel" attention will go towards, but that's a secondary system to what is interesting most of the time. INTPs are naturally interesting to us, most of the time. So long as you treat the ENFJs well, they will likely find you a continuous source of curiosity due to the Ne...it's constantly got something fascinating brewing up there in that over-sized brain that we imagine INTPs tote around. My conversations with my buddy AJ last for three hour increments if we're both completely socially charged (or we both feel like we haven't talked enough). Trust me when I say that he's got my priority. His advice is invaluable to me and he's a logical ballast in my life.
    Love is the point.

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