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[MBTI General] NFs, what bothers you the most about INTPs?

What bothers you the most?

  • selfishness

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • arrogance

    Votes: 7 23.3%
  • insensitivity

    Votes: 4 13.3%
  • immaturity

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • rigidity

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • detachment/apathy

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • Other (Explain!)

    Votes: 6 20.0%

  • Total voters
    30

Standuble

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I've actually been reading Jung since I last posted in this thread, and even he seem to struggle with defining Feeling. He says "this isn't what feeling actually is, but this is how it appears" on multiple occasions. He describes it as being about accepting or rejecting something. Presumably, something that is "worth" a lot to a feeler is something they accept. How does that sound to you?

Extraverted Feeling tries to divorce this from the subject as much as possible, whereas introverted Feeling does not.

Yes this would sound right. However my experiences with Fe implies that this process is no more "divorced" from the process than Fi is. Fe is just measuring worth from the collective point of view. I may be mistaken however.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yes this would sound right. However my experiences with Fe implies that this process is no more "divorced" from the process than Fi is. Fe is just measuring worth from the collective point of view. I may be mistaken however.

Well, we have to consider what "collective" we are referring to. Like the issue in physics with frames of reference, there are different "collective'" frames. There's humanity, and then there's subgroups within that, all the way from nation-states to groups of friends, or probably even one-on-one relationships. Other individuals would be objects from Jung's point of view.. distinct from the subject.

I think the emphasis on "collective" frames and individuals gives Fe a more practical aspect. This is just like how Te is more practical than Ti. Just as Ti can get lost in itself without reference to the real world, Fi can do the same thing.
 

xenaprincess

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I like INTPs, or the few I've known.

One is my boss. Another is a coworker I'm very close with, who is female. She is generally awesome, but sometimes I feel guilty during my stressful moments. She can be very patient with me! :D

My boss is good...but it can be tough. I have to keep telling myself that his not talking to me for stretches means that he trusts me. But it can be hard. It's like having an absent parent (bosses are so often parental figures whom one aims to please).

On the other hand, sometimes I am perplexed, genuinely perplexed, when he talks to me and is really nice. No offense. We can relate to each other pretty well and I genuinely like him. But sometimes his sudden nice-ness shocks me (because of the distance I feel at other times).

Anyhoo.
 
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Their love of laughter deeply inspires.
 

Standuble

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Well, we have to consider what "collective" we are referring to. Like the issue in physics with frames of reference, there are different "collective'" frames. There's humanity, and then there's subgroups within that, all the way from nation-states to groups of friends, or probably even one-on-one relationships. Other individuals would be objects from Jung's point of view.. distinct from the subject.

I think the emphasis on "collective" frames and individuals gives Fe a more practical aspect. This is just like how Te is more practical than Ti. Just as Ti can get lost in itself without reference to the real world, Fi can do the same thing.

I am not disputing any of that. The "collective" would be ultimately which frame of reference the person is exposed to either in that particular moment or what they have been exposed to substantially (and created impressions in the Pi.) I would think it would inevitably be either family or country (though for N's planet/univese could easily supersede either.)

I also agree with your statement that the extroverted function would be more practical too (though my function likes to perceive Fe as a redundant and useless practical tool.)
 

TopherRed

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I don't like being "put down" when an INTP gets distracted. It's like, "squirrel" and then everything about the social dynamic I've worked so hard to build up with them is gone. There is no such thing as social currency to an INTP. I think if they're around you long enough, they just get used to you and that inferior Fe kicks in and then they're like: "whaaa, where'd you go while I was working on solving the fractle equation of binary suppositions to save the universe just now?" :happy2:
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I am not disputing any of that. The "collective" would be ultimately which frame of reference the person is exposed to either in that particular moment or what they have been exposed to substantially (and created impressions in the Pi.) I would think it would inevitably be either family or country (though for N's planet/univese could easily supersede either.)

I think the frame of reference probably changes depending on the situation.
I also agree with your statement that the extroverted function would be more practical too (though my function likes to perceive Fe as a redundant and useless practical tool.)

I don't think it's redundant.

Fe, being extroverted, seems better at communicating than Fi, which is useful for getting people who aren't feelers to understand you. Perhaps Fi cares, but they may not realize that all the person they care about at that moment needs is a few words of encouragement. It seems to me like Fi likes to go to all kinds of lengths to do things for the person they care about, without actually talking to that person about the thing that's troubling them. They seem to have a way from sparing you from the truth, even if the truth is the thing that person actually needs (Like, for instance, the way my INFP mom will hide health problems). I understand that it's done with good intentions, but it does bug me about them.

I find that, if I care enough to take the time, I can understand Fe. Usually it involves using Ne. I can say, "oh, even if I don't agree, that kind of makes sense."
 

Standuble

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I think the frame of reference probably changes depending on the situation.

I don't think it's redundant.

Fe, being extroverted, seems better at communicating than Fi, which is useful for getting people who aren't feelers to understand you. Perhaps Fi cares, but they may not realize that all the person they care about at that moment needs is a few words of encouragement. It seems to me like Fi likes to go to all kinds of lengths to do things for the person they care about, without actually talking to that person about the thing that's troubling them. They seem to have a way from sparing you from the truth, even if the truth is the thing that person actually needs (Like, for instance, the way my INFP mom will hide health problems). I understand that it's done with good intentions, but it does bug me about them.

I find that, if I care enough to take the time, I can understand Fe. Usually it involves using Ne. I can say, "oh, even if I don't agree, that kind of makes sense."

When I say "redundant" I mean that in the grand scheme of things it serves no true purpose (or at least that is what my investigation seems to suggest.) However this is an issue with feeling in general. Knowing your own self, your own wants and desires are overrated. Feeling only exists in my understanding because it caused a organism to favour its own young over the efficiency of the hunt/personal survival which in turn caused it to become an advantageous evolutionary trait regardless of environment. But I digress.

Sparing one from the truth is more a personal preference. I see the reluctance as more like "wait and see" so you can gauge whether they would take the truth in the way you intended. But you are welcome to ignore all this and just bludgeon them if you wish to and let them take it as they see fit. I myself have no trouble being honest with others (often critically) though in the process of doing so it may cause issues which run counter to your values and ideals. I am usually happy with conflict to a degree because I see it as a way of growth. However if I do the same thing to others they don't know that was my goal or may not agree with my views that so in my attempt to raise them up I crush them in the ground instead. So I observe the situation as I really hate not getting what I want.
 
S

Society

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I created this thread, because I wanted to see if my perceptions of NF discomfort with NTs was correct. The lion's share of the discomfort appears to be apathy/detachment and arrogance, which is along the lines of what I was expecting.
then why specify INTPs rather than NTs in general?

p.s. while so far most have rejected the proposition that i even could be an NF, i might as well add that what bothers me most about INTPs from RL is the freaking sensitivity.

edit: seriously, they should probably demand sensitivity training before allowing non-INTPs into a software engineering classroom. do you realize how many of you people are there? the other day i got puppy-eyed for not using an INTP chick's interface layout... made me feel like i just stole paparoni from a puppy.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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When I say "redundant" I mean that in the grand scheme of things it serves no true purpose (or at least that is what my investigation seems to suggest.) However this is an issue with feeling in general. Knowing your own self, your own wants and desires are overrated. Feeling only exists in my understanding because it caused a organism to favour its own young over the efficiency of the hunt/personal survival which in turn caused it to become an advantageous evolutionary trait regardless of environment. But I digress.

Gotcha.
Sparing one from the truth is more a personal preference. I see the reluctance as more like "wait and see" so you can gauge whether they would take the truth in the way you intended. But you are welcome to ignore all this and just bludgeon them if you wish to and let them take it as they see fit. I myself have no trouble being honest with others (often critically) though in the process of doing so it may cause issues which run counter to your values and ideals.

This is probably what's going on with that. I wonder why a close family member would try to hide getting heart surgery from me. I don't buy the lame explanation that, because it's a stent, it doesn't count as surgery. Perhaps what's going on there was that my happiness and calm is valued more than I value it myself. That makes sense,although I still think my own preferences should enter into it.

then why specify INTPs rather than NTs in general?

That should read.... discomfort with "INTPs". I don't claim to have any ideas about how they react to other NTs, only how they react to me and other INTPs.
p.s. while so far most have rejected the proposition that i even could be an NF, i might as well add that what bothers me most about INTPs from RL is the freaking sensitivity.

I won't argue with that. I know I place too much importance on being liked and getting the approval of others. The side effect of this is that I become distraught when I don't get it. I'm working on that. I care about the approval of people for whom their opinion should not matter to me at all.


the other day i got puppy-eyed for not using an INTP chick's interface layout... made me feel like i just stole paparoni from a puppy.

This is why I'm working on my poker face, so I can feel puppy-eyed on the inside without others knowing. Honestly, I find that there's not a lot I can do about my emotions most of the time. I find that the best thing to do is to just ride them out. Sometimes bouncing ideas around with others to see if shit is just in my head helps, although not always.
 

Qlip

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I voted: Other. Constant Monty Python and Simpsons references, just drives me up the wall. ;)
 

Totenkindly

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I voted: Other. Constant Monty Python and Simpsons references, just drives me up the wall. ;)

:cry:

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, Smithers.

:boohoo:
 
S

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That should read.... discomfort with "INTPs". I don't claim to have any ideas about how they react to other NTs, only how they react to me and other INTPs.

hmm, probably much of the same attributes on the list (childishness being my #1 nohari, which is quite close to immaturity). but i admire that you would feel lacking enough data to test your theory in regards to other types.

This is why I'm working on my poker face, so I can feel puppy-eyed on the inside without others knowing. Honestly, I find that there's not a lot I can do about my emotions most of the time. I find that the best thing to do is to just ride them out. Sometimes bouncing ideas around with others to see if shit is just in my head helps, although not always.

well, at this point she doesn't really need to adapt to the behavior of any other type - INTPs are in the majority. see, with the exception of one male FJ of some sort (i think N but i'm not sure), three INTJs and a handful of ISTPs, me and one other ENTP, all the other non-INTP have flunked long ago... i am living in an INTP world right now - i am the one who need to learn to adapt to your ways and customs ;)

I've noticed this online also. I'm come to think that it makes no sense to claim objectivity, and when one does, it is a sign of lacking it. It should be self-evident if it is actually the case.
interesting

i would find that principle more applicable in regards to traits which are themselves measured by one's ability to impact the subjective experience of others - kindness, compassion, friendliness... hell, even being funny is measured by the experience of others, so that's in there too.

but to assume that objectivity should be self-evident assumes an objective observer. thinking of the negative social reaction to people which proved to be rather objective, like newton or galileo, or even alfred wegener (within the scientific community), it seems clear that their objectivity was not self evident at the time. i would go a step further and say that in order for anyone to be correct about anything one must assume that most people are wrong.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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interesting

i would find that principle more applicable in regards to traits which are themselves measured by one's ability to impact the subjective experience of others - kindness, compassion, friendliness... hell, even being funny is measured by the experience of others, so that's in there too.

but to assume that objectivity should be self-evident assumes an objective observer. thinking of the negative social reaction to people which proved to be rather objective, like newton or galileo, or even alfred wegener (within the scientific community), it seems clear that their objectivity was not self evident at the time. i would go a step further and say that in order for anyone to be correct about anything one must assume that most people are wrong.
That makes sense. I was referring mostly to debates in which one person says, "my post is objective and you are wrong", or some variation of it. It is close to meaningless to just make the claim, but rather it should be demonstrated in terms of ideas. I find the irony frustrating in debate because it only means "I think I'm objective, I'm not going to demonstrate how, and I expect you to take that on blind faith or in the face of me demonstrating the opposite".
 

Rasofy

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I don't like being "put down" when an INTP gets distracted. It's like, "squirrel" and then everything about the social dynamic I've worked so hard to build up with them is gone. There is no such thing as social currency to an INTP.
I think you're on to something. Care to explain how does that social currency thing works for you?

I think if they're around you long enough, they just get used to you and that inferior Fe kicks in and then they're like: "whaaa, where'd you go while I was working on solving the fractle equation of binary suppositions to save the universe just now?" :happy2:
Hah, nice. Systems are usually more interesting than people.
 

TopherRed

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I think you're on to something. Care to explain how does that social currency thing works for you?


Hah, nice. Systems are usually more interesting than people.

Yeah, my pleasure. Social currency for me is a system; when I see a person that appeals to me in some way, I invest time with them and engage them socially in order to emotionally bond and create a closer relationship.

With INTPs and ISTPs, I've noticed that emotional bonding doesn't occur on their end, except over a large amount of time spent consistently together. The term "bond" also implies a connection which isn't easily broken...

For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond, they will, with enough time and investment, become some of my loyalist friends.

Ex. 1- My former college roommate Stephen (ISTP) and I (ENFJ) can pick up at the deep level of friendship where we left off after not having spoken to each other for a year and a half.
Ex. 2- My best friend AJ (INTP) went through something similar upon his semester-length absence finishing his incomplete senior year of college.

New Conclusion: I suppose then it is accurate to say that social currency is a very Fe concept... I've seen I*TPs occasionally use it to their advantage when trying to achieve social goals. My main conclusion, however, after thinking this out, is that you can bond with an I*TP, it just takes more time and resources than it does with most people. After that happens, however, it's probably one of the most fulfilling relationships an ENFJ can have, in social and I assume (though I've never had the pleasure) romantic realms.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond,

i think we're slow to respond because we have a tendency to view the ease, straightforwardness and speed of the Fe dom with suspicion. Actually, at the beginning of any relationship or potential relationship, I can't help but think "sure, you find me awesome now, but what will happen when you get to know me better?"

This is especially true with dating, since people (or women, anyway) can go from hot to cold so quickly, over things that I regard as insignificant.

There's an expectation that I act "genuine" but also follow certain unexpressed arbitrary rules about what is appropriate to discuss at any given stage. We're really just talking about personal preferences, but they are treated by the other party like "universals" that "everyone should know."
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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That makes sense. I was referring mostly to debates in which one person says, "my post is objective and you are wrong", or some variation of it. It is close to meaningless to just make the claim, but rather it should be demonstrated in terms of ideas. I find the irony frustrating in debate because it only means "I think I'm objective, I'm not going to demonstrate how, and I expect you to take that on blind faith or in the face of me demonstrating the opposite".

I agree with you. Truth must be demonstrated to be such, not declared as such. Anyone can claim anything is objective and true, but that does not make so. I try to avoid doing that, because I would say it's a pet peeve of mine.
 

Rasofy

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Yeah, my pleasure. Social currency for me is a system; when I see a person that appeals to me in some way, I invest time with them and engage them socially in order to emotionally bond and create a closer relationship.

With INTPs and ISTPs, I've noticed that emotional bonding doesn't occur on their end, except over a large amount of time spent consistently together. The term "bond" also implies a connection which isn't easily broken...

For myself, and I believe for most ENFJs, we bond with people quickly, sometimes to our folly. Not everybody who is interesting is also "safe". In the case of bonding with an I*TP, I've noted that if I ignore the initial emotional hurt of their being slow to respond, they will, with enough time and investment, become some of my loyalist friends.

Ex. 1- My former college roommate Stephen (ISTP) and I (ENFJ) can pick up at the deep level of friendship where we left off after not having spoken to each other for a year and a half.
Ex. 2- My best friend AJ (INTP) went through something similar upon his semester-length absence finishing his incomplete senior year of college.

New Conclusion: I suppose then it is accurate to say that social currency is a very Fe concept... I've seen I*TPs occasionally use it to their advantage when trying to achieve social goals. My main conclusion, however, after thinking this out, is that you can bond with an I*TP, it just takes more time and resources than it does with most people. After that happens, however, it's probably one of the most fulfilling relationships an ENFJ can have, in social and I assume (though I've never had the pleasure) romantic realms.
Very interesting.

Most Fe-doms I've met seem to have a lot of acquaintances, so I tend to intuitively assume that my relationship with them won't get to be very meaningful, as I demand a relatively high priority in order to call someone a friend.
 

TopherRed

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i think we're slow to respond because we have a tendency to view the ease, straightforwardness and speed of the Fe dom with suspicion. Actually, at the beginning of any relationship or potential relationship, I can't help but think "sure, you find me awesome now, but what will happen when you get to know me better?"

Can I betray my own here and say you're right to be suspicious...it is a weakness of my type to find things interesting for a minute and then to move on. I've never had this issue with an INTP, however, healthy or unhealthy...you keep me laughing and interested.

but what will happen when you get to know me better?"

Are you asking this because you've noticed ENFJs are flighty at times, or because you've noticed that they see something in you that they don't like? PM me if you'd like to talk this out. I'm curious to see if there's an emotional block with you that might prevent you from connecting.

There's an expectation that I act "genuine" but also follow certain unexpressed arbitrary rules about what is appropriate to discuss at any given stage. We're really just talking about personal preferences, but they are treated by the other party like "universals" that "everyone should know."

This is especially true with dating, since people (or women, anyway) can go from hot to cold so quickly, over things that I regard as insignificant.

This is another ENFJ weakpoint. Fe leads often make grand and sweeping statements as a matter of habit because we're communally minded--ENFJs make assumptions about what people can see or can't see because interpersonal relationships appear to be so clear to us (it must be obvious [Ni]...to everybody! [Fe]). This is not the case for you.

This problem, thankfully, is easily solved with a little patience and communication. Try telling her, "Sweetheart [the ENFJ folk love pet names, they demonstrate emotional care], I didn't know about that. I don't have your instincts for things like this, can you please explain?" Not only will she be grateful that you took the time to understand, but in learning to communicate with you, she's sharpening her Ti-skills, so in the interaction you basically learn to communicate with one another. ...that is of course, if you can stay calm and realize that a.) emotions aren't a bad thing, and b.) she's logical if you dig far enough, she's just got a hard time expressing it just like you've got a hard time expressing your emotions.

If she's too immature to explain it to you, dump her. Note I'm making a distinction between "not willing to explain it" and "not able to explain it". Sometimes an ENFJ needs to talk out her thoughts out loud in order to arrive at a logical junction where things either a.) make sense, or b.) get discarded when an idea that makes "more sense" (is logically satisfying) comes along.

I would highly recommend that it would be in your best sexual interests that you start trying to figure out why your ENFJ women care about something. I guarantee with a little digging, you'll either understand and adopt what she cares about (because it's logical), or you'll explain why you think it might be better if she looked at it in a logical way...just like you do. 9/10 as long as you treat them well emotionally, ENFJs will learn to speak your language logically and you both bring each other to growth points and greater happiness.

Very interesting.

Most Fe-doms I've met seem to have a lot of acquaintances, so I tend to intuitively assume that my relationship with them won't get to be very meaningful, as I demand a relatively high priority in order to call someone a friend.

Mmhmm,
ENFJs order things in what's called "interrupt priority"...whatever just flagged them down is what their "squirrel" attention will go towards, but that's a secondary system to what is interesting most of the time. INTPs are naturally interesting to us, most of the time. So long as you treat the ENFJs well, they will likely find you a continuous source of curiosity due to the Ne...it's constantly got something fascinating brewing up there in that over-sized brain that we imagine INTPs tote around. My conversations with my buddy AJ last for three hour increments if we're both completely socially charged (or we both feel like we haven't talked enough). Trust me when I say that he's got my priority. His advice is invaluable to me and he's a logical ballast in my life.
 
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