[Jungian Cognitive Functions] shaming

[the state i am in]

i was reading an Fi/Fe thread, and i came across the idea of shaming. nf types, i feel, are extremely sensitive to shame (especially through e4s --> e1 --> e7). as such, they can both react to and be manipulated by their own sense of shame. furthermore, they are often aware of shame so clearly that they can employ this for their own ends or against others who they do not like. they can become the aggressor.

so, as an nf, what does shaming mean to you? when is the truth necessary even when it hurts someone? how do you assess whether someone is shaming (ie manipulating) or simply being authentic to what is true for them? how do you separate when your insensitivities are resulting in your experience of shame and when someone is deliberately shaming you? whose responsibility is it to notice and let go of sensitive meanings (indices for comparison) that are likely to shame another?

 

[Chiharu]

Shame is the most painful emotion for me. I get violently angry when I see parents shaming their kids, even if it's "for their own good". And if you make me feel ashamed, I'll be mad at you even if you're right.


I feel like people should be more sensitive, but I'm also oversensitive and offensive.

 

[21%]

^^

I feel the same way. It's really, really bad. I don't think I've ever seen it done though.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think shaming is done for punishment. I don't believe in punishment because I think it is primarily a means of satisfying anger and entitlement rather than correcting a problem. As human beings we all have faults and regrets, but there is always a way to help people feel secure before pointing out something for their "own good". I teach music which has a loooong history of shaming - especially in orchestral settings. It is extremely upsetting to watch it happen. Teachers also shame their students often and that is also hurtful to see. When you feel deep respect for other people, it is possible to correct a problem without making them feel hopeless and worthless. There is always the body language and eye contact that can be reassuring, but it also helps to remind people of their strengths. One helpful thing I have found is whenever I correct a problem with a student, I try to notice how much of the attempt they got correct. This applies to anything - the more we can see what people do right, the more we can understand how to guide and correct when it is our place to do so.

Respect is stronger than shame.

 

[cafe]

It was very effective on me as a child. Did not do anything good for my psyche and took me a long time to overcome it to a reasonable level. I'm still at least temporarily susceptible to it if I'm caught off guard.

When my older daughter was a toddler, my grandma who I loved very much but who used shaming as a disciplinary tool with me, tried to shame my daughter. I was uncharacteristically brusque and emphatic about telling her to knock it off and I try not to ever shame my kids or anyone else.

Except one time I did intentionally embarrass my younger daughter in front of others when she was little because she was basically born a bit of a drama queen and she got it into her head that running away from home was a good way to make a point when she was upset with me (and it did make the point, I felt terrible when she did it). I tried everything I could think of to get her to stop. I have two kids younger than her with autism, so I couldn't just take off after her at the drop of a hat and she was endangering herself. So I said something about what she was doing in front of people at church and they showed surprise (because she is generally exceedingly very sweet and charming) and disapproval of the behavior. She stopped doing it after that. I hate to make my child feel bad, but I'd rather do that than have her get run over or kidnapped or have all my kids taken away for neglect.

The thing about shame is that it usually either works too well or not at all. People who can be shamed can usually be persuaded by less below-the-belt methods and people who have no shame shake it off. As a rule, it's like using a chainsaw to remove a splinter: you may get the splinter out, but you do a buttload of damage in the process.

 

[Society]

[MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] - good thread
i would like to add to the question bucket:
what exactly triggers shame in you? and how would you describe the experience of it?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

so, as an nf, what does shaming mean to you? when is the truth necessary even when it hurts someone? how do you assess whether someone is shaming (ie manipulating) or simply being authentic to what is true for them?

What shaming ‘means’ to me is any action (or lack of action) that expresses to another person you either do not approve of them or do not like them. There’s blatant ‘shaming’ like the use of sharp words or pejoratives to express disapproval; but I even consider subtle gestures- like getting up from a table every time someone specific sits down, ignoring someone, leaving a conversation every time someone specific shows up to join in, etc- to also be a form of ‘shaming’ (because they do also cause shame, whether it's intended or not).

And whether or not I believe it’s warranted revolves around this Naranjo statement: “The superimposition of past on present is linked to persons and desires from the past which are not conscious for the subject and that give his or her conduct an irrational seal- the affect does not seem appropriate either in quality or quantity to the real, actual situation.”

I think that people will often ‘shame’ others and- even though it’s coming from an ‘authentic’ place (in the sense that it’s based on what they’re truly feeling/thinking about the situation)- really they’re superimposing something about their own past into how they are interpreting that situation….and so the ‘shaming’ is inappropriate/unwarranted even though they are being authentic to what is true for them.

And so, in regard to “when is the truth necessary even when it hurts someone?”: I prefer the word ‘helpful’ or ‘useful’ over ‘necessary’, and I think it’s most helpful/useful when someone is not superimposing their own past on the present situation.

[eta:] And really, I guess, if it's void enough of issues on the other person's end to be useful/helpful- that's probably when I'd call it 'feedback' more than 'shaming'. I suppose 'shaming' has the negative connotation of making someone feel bad and ideally problematics can be pointed out in such a way that no one has to feel bad. But that line between 'feedback' and 'shaming' is weird. Lots of times, someone will claim they are offering'feedback' when really they're just trying to purge their own feelings of inferiority into someone else- and I'd call that 'shaming'.

how do you separate when your insensitivities are resulting in your experience of shame and when someone is deliberately shaming you?

For me, it has almost everything to do with my experience of a person. If my experience of them is that they feel the need to purge their own feelings of worthlessness into others (iow: they demonstrated a distinct tendency to shame others in a way that seems irrational- regardless of how real it seems to them “the affect does not seem appropriate either in quality or quantity to the real, actual situation”) then I tend to build a rather thick skin to it and for the most part disregard it. I won’t necessarily see it as a ‘deliberate’ shaming on their part, but I won’t let it make me feel bad either. Or even if it somehow has an “irrational seal”, I am able to not take it personally and won’t give it much weight.

On the other hand- when a person is close to me or I have developed a certain respect for their judgment- I tend to have an inordinately difficult time recognizing when someone is being unfair to me in this regard, and it will work and make me feel bad. (Though if it's repeatedly the case that someone makes me feel bad because of their own issues and I eventually catch on, I will start giving their opinion less weight.)

whose responsibility is it to notice and let go of sensitive meanings (indices for comparison) that are likely to shame another?

I think it depends on how important a particular person is to me and/or how available it is to avoid them. If it’s my priority to keep them around, then I feel like the onus is on me to let go of the sensitivity (although really, if I have a priority to keep someone around, then it’s probably because they aren’t doing anything to trigger unwarranted shame in the first place).

[eta:]Though I do realize that avoiding people is taking part in 'shaming' myself, to some extent, because people are not islands and it's not like I can choose for them not to feel negative affect as a result simply because I don't like dealing with them or being around them. I suppose I usually assume, if I'm avoiding someone because they come off as too oafish or to difficult for me to understand, then they probably don't value my attention either so it *probably* isn't making them feel any 'shame'.

 

[Amargith]

so, as an nf, what does shaming mean to you?

It means telling another person that they are not doing what they are supposed to do in *your* view.

when is the truth necessary even when it hurts someone?

Im a strong advocate of truth, delivered in the right way, without shaming, at any point. Even when it hurts someone. But instead of delivering shame at that point, I try to deliver understanding and support to come to terms with that truth, if at all possible. Tough love and shaming is something I use as a last resort and because it might harm others if I do not. This is one on one, in groups as there is no specific target, I might speak up in a tougher way.

how do you assess whether someone is shaming (ie manipulating) or simply being authentic to what is true for them?

Usually, those who shame to manipulate are being authentic in what is true for them, as they are as of yet unaware that others may have different, equally valid povs than them, causing them to demand others to fall in line with their 'truth'.

That said, many of those people use 'shaming' for that falling in line. When I feel a definite pull for control and surrender, I will gently resist it and circumvent them to try and find common ground to negotiate on. If all negotiating is cut off and they persist in their demands, I'll leave or become an impossible, immovable object. If they still persist, they'll find I'd rather slit my own wrists than bend even an inch their way.

how do you separate when your insensitivities are resulting in your experience of shame and when someone is deliberately shaming you? whose responsibility is it to notice and let go of sensitive meanings (indices for comparison) that are likely to shame another?

I know that I cannot always keep everyone in mind and that sometimes I will be unfortunately insensitive towards someone without even realizing it. I am open to being made attentive to that and my first response will be to apologize profusely normally. If however I get shamed and told I'm a horrible person, the person doing so will find it faling on deaf ears. I'll withdraw, re-evaluate my actions, apologize if I deem it warranted, while make it it *VERY* clear that shaming me in that way is not taken kindly. You are not my mother. Nor are you my father (and even they no longer get to do this as they abused it). Im an adult and I'm human - I will make mistakes. Simply bring them to my attention and I will likely shame myself for failing and make it up to you instantly. But shaming me is *MY* job. Not yours.

I recognize other people work differently and I have on occasion - much to my own dismay and high ick-factor on this - recognized that there are people close to me that do *need* this treatment and therefore I have as such administered it. Never was fond of it, but it seemed to do the trick and they were happier for it, so

 

[Society]

It means telling another person that they are not doing what they are supposed to do in *your* view.

i thought it means telling or implying to another person something about themselves or what they have done which comes into conflict with that person's own beliefs about who they are or how they should act.

how would it work otherwise? if a rabbi came and gave you the nono for eating shrimps, or if a hardcore christian condemned you for sex before marriage, how would that induce any sense of shame (assuming you are neither orthodox nor christian, which you aren't)?

(btw - not a rhetorical question, i am curious if that impacts NFs in some ways it wouldn't impact me)

 

[Amargith]

i thought it means telling or implying to another person something about themselves or what they have done which comes into conflict with that person's own beliefs about who they are or how they should act.

how would it work otherwise? if a rabbi came and gave you the nono for eating shrimps, or if a hardcore christian condemned you for sex before marriage, how would that induce any sense of shame (assuming you are neither orthodox nor christian, which you aren't)?

(btw - not a rhetorical question, i am curious if that impacts NFs in some ways it wouldn't impact me)

Since I do not believe in shaming but in building bridges and understanding, it isn't really something they can use to point to my own beliefs. As for pointing out my other beliefs and where Ive failed them...that usually requires them to at least know me somewhat, which means that they are likely friends and yes, have the permission to do so. I do not have any problems with them pointing that out, as I trust them not to judge me and know I'm fallable, so it aint really shaming. I ll be ashamed that I failed myself, but their input is just an observation. I don't let people who judge and shame people close enough to me though to make those accurate assessments usually, so their input is usually invalid and their method will get the 'roll off my shoulder' approach. And it is this shaming that Im talking about, I guess.

As an NF, I want to make others happy, create a harmonious environment for everyone to enjoy and resolve conflict. And I resent those that try to use that trait of mine against me in order to get me to comply to what *they* believe I should be like and what is *right*, or for their own convenience for that matter, which is what I experience as [social] shaming. It is making me choose between my most precious values: respect other peoples povs, work towards harmony and be yourself. Their lack of respect for my individuality and their violation of the very values they are imposing on me in the first place makes it rather easy to decide in the end though. The conflict is on the other party imho at that point. I still resent that they put me in that lose-lose situation in the first place though. Especially if it is done in a peer-pressure social shaming kind of way - aka using political power to gain control over me.

 

[Society]

Since I do not believe in shaming but in building bridges and understanding, it isn't really something they can use to point to my own beliefs. As for pointing out my other beliefs and where Ive failed them...that usually requires them to at least know me somewhat, which means that they are likely friends and yes, have the permission to do so.

oh, your assuming intended (manipulative) shaming, i was thinking in terms of causality, an action or expression of another which induces shame. they don't really need to know your beliefs in order to point out something about your behavior or actions which contradicts them.

 

[Amargith]

oh, your assuming intended (manipulative) shaming, i was thinking in terms of causality, an action or expression of another which induces shame. they don't really need to know your beliefs in order to point out something about your behavior or actions which contradicts them.

Actually, they do. Seemingly contradictory behaviors often do make sense when the key to them (the value) is known.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Actually, they do. Seemingly contradictory behaviors often do make sense when the key to them (the value) is known.

This is also how I see it. It takes a long time of observation to actually understand another person's behavior. (Edit: I think we might be kindred spirits, Amargith. )

i thought it means telling or implying to another person something about themselves or what they have done which comes into conflict with that person's own beliefs about who they are or how they should act.

how would it work otherwise? if a rabbi came and gave you the nono for eating shrimps, or if a hardcore christian condemned you for sex before marriage, how would that induce any sense of shame (assuming you are neither orthodox nor christian, which you aren't)?

(btw - not a rhetorical question, i am curious if that impacts NFs in some ways it wouldn't impact me)

These are good examples for how I see shaming. Those are external systems in which the individual is expected to submit to the group behaviors and values. If someone desires to belong to the group, regardless of whether or not they personally agree with all the behaviors and values, that social rejection will coerce their will towards the group. If one doesn't belong to the group, then it stills feels like rejection, but if no relationship is desired, then it wouldn't not hurt as much. I don't see it as conveying information, but just establishing social bonds and rejection.

I see shaming as manipulative by its nature. It is an attempt to get the object of the shaming to submit to the will of a group or other person. I see it as related to how a gang will jump in a new member, or a cult will psychologically shame a new member. By inducing an overwhelming feeling of social rejection, it reduces the individual's psyche to an almost childlike position in which approval is subconsciously craved. I do not see it as a way to communicate any information, but a social tactic. It is why it always frustrated me in an orchestral environment to the point that I stopped playing there (I like to use this example because it is emotionally neutral for most people). It distracts from the information communicated.

It makes it harder for me to correct my mistakes because I go into a self-protective mode of just trying to avoid the social rejection. The idea is that the shaming corrects the behavior because of this, but for me it just makes me avoid the source of shaming and in no way helps me to process my flaws and errors. The worse the shaming is emotionally, the less capable I am of hearing the content of what is being said, and instead it becomes the emotional equivalent of someone just hitting me. I have to then recover from the emotional pain AND later try to comprehend my flaws and correct them. For me it is like someone telling a runner "You are not running fast enough, let me break your legs as a reminder."

 

[Amargith]

^

'nuff said

 

[the state i am in]

i appreciate all the responses. i have some follow up.

it seems like we have a split regarding intentionality. some who feel that intention matters, others who feel it does not, and others who say that it makes it easier to work with if you understand intention (by focusing on the other person, assuming that all intention is ultimately rooted in something positive, a desire of the self, and unconditionally accepting that intention as a result --> to me kind of a classic, rogerian e9 notion).

one thing that seems pertinent to ask, then, is what differentiates feedback from shaming? is shaming ultimately about more than the behavior itself and posited as a threat to one's own identity? does it reach all the way to the self? is it just a categorical no being imposed, simply reacting without listening to where the other is coming from (ultimately closing off from the other and refusing to fully relate to where they are coming from, instead only focusing on securing compliance)?

i ask because i know fj types (and sometimes tp types) tend to be really good at this categorical no type of maneuvering. they know how to pejoratively mark you with low status meanings. but, at the same time, i feel like, as an action, people of all types know how to work with the emotional, self-concept based vulnerabilities of others to manipulate. so i don't feel like it's just the categorical no that i associate with FJ as much as digging in one's heels and rejecting something without listening.

so, to elaborate on my third question, when is shaming shaming and not insensitivity? is it entirely rooted in controlling someone else's behavior? controlling the idea of someone else (who they are)? when is it helpful and beneficial feedback? is this just a product of the level of ego-centricity, of unconscious selfishness that still exists within a person even if they are not intending anything malicious? or does it require blame to also be involved?

 

[the state i am in]

[MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] - good thread
i would like to add to the question bucket:
what exactly triggers shame in you? and how would you describe the experience of it?

i think this is true for anyone, but ego issues. for me, particularly centered around my enneagram type. e4 issues of excessive self-consciousness rooted in ultimately not having a ground that prevents you from feeling like you are worthless (because you realize that all notions of value are contingent and somewhat arbitrarily constructed). e5 issues regarding feeling powerless to the truth that will eventually show you that your control was completely illusory. social instinct inferior aspects as well, regarding not anticipating the social context for others as gracefully as would be preferred, and sx issues regarding my unwillingness to surrender my own autonomy and right to self-determination.

 

[cafe]

Feedback differs from shaming for me in that shaming sends a 'you' message and that message is some iteration of 'you're bad.' Feedback would be more along the lines of explaining what the consequences of a particular behavior are, like 'when you said that, I felt this way' or 'when you did not do this, this happened to me.'

You're talking about the behavior of the person not the person's intent or character, etc. Now, I think you can only separate who a person is from what that person does to a small degree, especially if there is a pattern, but it's better not to treat a person as if they are bad until you know the whole story.

And if a person is actually bad, however you want to define that, shaming is a waste of time. They don't give a shit how you feel or what happened to you as a result of their behavior and they don't care if you think they are bad, because you do not matter.

 

[Amargith]

Feedback is best given without using YOU.

YOU did blablabllab and YOU blablbala.Why dont YOU blalabla? = Shaming

I feel that blablblab, which is how I felt when blablblablab. This is how I would handle it blablabla = feedback


One of the easiest tricks they teach you in conflict management is the 'Sandwich Feedback' -method.

I think that you are [insert positive thing about said person and his intentions] =open with good

AND (NOT BUT - or however)I think that if you [insert suggestion] you could really be on to something =insert what needs improvement

Overall though, I feel that [insert overall good thing about person, preferably pertaining to this situation] = ending with another good vibe/encouragement.

It's the most efficient way to give constructive criticism without crushing the person in the process, and the most optimal way to get them to actually accept the criticism and do something with it.

 

[WALMART]

I have a friend, incredibly socially successful lawyer that knows thousands of people. Has told me I'm the most intelligent, shameful person he knows.


I still don't know how to take it. What is shame? The answer eludes me.

 

[Eilonwy]

The questions that come to my mind are: Is it shame because of a deliberate intention by the shamer, whether the shamee is successfully shamed or not? Or is it shame when the shamee feels shame, no matter the intention of the shamer? Or are both true to some extent?


ETA: Does only the attempt matter? Does only the result matter? Or do both the attempt and the result matter, and in what degree?