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Thread: shaming

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Since I do not believe in shaming but in building bridges and understanding, it isn't really something they can use to point to my own beliefs. As for pointing out my other beliefs and where Ive failed them...that usually requires them to at least know me somewhat, which means that they are likely friends and yes, have the permission to do so.
    oh, your assuming intended (manipulative) shaming, i was thinking in terms of causality, an action or expression of another which induces shame. they don't really need to know your beliefs in order to point out something about your behavior or actions which contradicts them.

  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh, your assuming intended (manipulative) shaming, i was thinking in terms of causality, an action or expression of another which induces shame. they don't really need to know your beliefs in order to point out something about your behavior or actions which contradicts them.


    Actually, they do. Seemingly contradictory behaviors often do make sense when the key to them (the value) is known.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    Actually, they do. Seemingly contradictory behaviors often do make sense when the key to them (the value) is known.
    This is also how I see it. It takes a long time of observation to actually understand another person's behavior. (Edit: I think we might be kindred spirits, Amargith. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i thought it means telling or implying to another person something about themselves or what they have done which comes into conflict with that person's own beliefs about who they are or how they should act.

    how would it work otherwise? if a rabbi came and gave you the nono for eating shrimps, or if a hardcore christian condemned you for sex before marriage, how would that induce any sense of shame (assuming you are neither orthodox nor christian, which you aren't)?

    (btw - not a rhetorical question, i am curious if that impacts NFs in some ways it wouldn't impact me)
    These are good examples for how I see shaming. Those are external systems in which the individual is expected to submit to the group behaviors and values. If someone desires to belong to the group, regardless of whether or not they personally agree with all the behaviors and values, that social rejection will coerce their will towards the group. If one doesn't belong to the group, then it stills feels like rejection, but if no relationship is desired, then it wouldn't not hurt as much. I don't see it as conveying information, but just establishing social bonds and rejection.

    I see shaming as manipulative by its nature. It is an attempt to get the object of the shaming to submit to the will of a group or other person. I see it as related to how a gang will jump in a new member, or a cult will psychologically shame a new member. By inducing an overwhelming feeling of social rejection, it reduces the individual's psyche to an almost childlike position in which approval is subconsciously craved. I do not see it as a way to communicate any information, but a social tactic. It is why it always frustrated me in an orchestral environment to the point that I stopped playing there (I like to use this example because it is emotionally neutral for most people). It distracts from the information communicated.

    It makes it harder for me to correct my mistakes because I go into a self-protective mode of just trying to avoid the social rejection. The idea is that the shaming corrects the behavior because of this, but for me it just makes me avoid the source of shaming and in no way helps me to process my flaws and errors. The worse the shaming is emotionally, the less capable I am of hearing the content of what is being said, and instead it becomes the emotional equivalent of someone just hitting me. I have to then recover from the emotional pain AND later try to comprehend my flaws and correct them. For me it is like someone telling a runner "You are not running fast enough, let me break your legs as a reminder."
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^

    'nuff said
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  5. #15
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i appreciate all the responses. i have some follow up.

    it seems like we have a split regarding intentionality. some who feel that intention matters, others who feel it does not, and others who say that it makes it easier to work with if you understand intention (by focusing on the other person, assuming that all intention is ultimately rooted in something positive, a desire of the self, and unconditionally accepting that intention as a result --> to me kind of a classic, rogerian e9 notion).

    one thing that seems pertinent to ask, then, is what differentiates feedback from shaming? is shaming ultimately about more than the behavior itself and posited as a threat to one's own identity? does it reach all the way to the self? is it just a categorical no being imposed, simply reacting without listening to where the other is coming from (ultimately closing off from the other and refusing to fully relate to where they are coming from, instead only focusing on securing compliance)?

    i ask because i know fj types (and sometimes tp types) tend to be really good at this categorical no type of maneuvering. they know how to pejoratively mark you with low status meanings. but, at the same time, i feel like, as an action, people of all types know how to work with the emotional, self-concept based vulnerabilities of others to manipulate. so i don't feel like it's just the categorical no that i associate with FJ as much as digging in one's heels and rejecting something without listening.

    so, to elaborate on my third question, when is shaming shaming and not insensitivity? is it entirely rooted in controlling someone else's behavior? controlling the idea of someone else (who they are)? when is it helpful and beneficial feedback? is this just a product of the level of ego-centricity, of unconscious selfishness that still exists within a person even if they are not intending anything malicious? or does it require blame to also be involved?

  6. #16
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    @the state i am in - good thread
    i would like to add to the question bucket:
    what exactly triggers shame in you? and how would you describe the experience of it?
    i think this is true for anyone, but ego issues. for me, particularly centered around my enneagram type. e4 issues of excessive self-consciousness rooted in ultimately not having a ground that prevents you from feeling like you are worthless (because you realize that all notions of value are contingent and somewhat arbitrarily constructed). e5 issues regarding feeling powerless to the truth that will eventually show you that your control was completely illusory. social instinct inferior aspects as well, regarding not anticipating the social context for others as gracefully as would be preferred, and sx issues regarding my unwillingness to surrender my own autonomy and right to self-determination.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Feedback differs from shaming for me in that shaming sends a 'you' message and that message is some iteration of 'you're bad.' Feedback would be more along the lines of explaining what the consequences of a particular behavior are, like 'when you said that, I felt this way' or 'when you did not do this, this happened to me.'

    You're talking about the behavior of the person not the person's intent or character, etc. Now, I think you can only separate who a person is from what that person does to a small degree, especially if there is a pattern, but it's better not to treat a person as if they are bad until you know the whole story.

    And if a person is actually bad, however you want to define that, shaming is a waste of time. They don't give a shit how you feel or what happened to you as a result of their behavior and they don't care if you think they are bad, because you do not matter.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Feedback is best given without using YOU.

    YOU did blablabllab and YOU blablbala.Why dont YOU blalabla? = Shaming

    I feel that blablblab, which is how I felt when blablblablab. This is how I would handle it blablabla = feedback


    One of the easiest tricks they teach you in conflict management is the 'Sandwich Feedback' -method.

    I think that you are [insert positive thing about said person and his intentions] =open with good

    AND (NOT BUT - or however)I think that if you [insert suggestion] you could really be on to something =insert what needs improvement

    Overall though, I feel that [insert overall good thing about person, preferably pertaining to this situation] = ending with another good vibe/encouragement.

    It's the most efficient way to give constructive criticism without crushing the person in the process, and the most optimal way to get them to actually accept the criticism and do something with it.
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  9. #19
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    I have a friend, incredibly socially successful lawyer that knows thousands of people. Has told me I'm the most intelligent, shameful person he knows.


    I still don't know how to take it. What is shame? The answer eludes me.

  10. #20
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    The questions that come to my mind are: Is it shame because of a deliberate intention by the shamer, whether the shamee is successfully shamed or not? Or is it shame when the shamee feels shame, no matter the intention of the shamer? Or are both true to some extent?


    ETA: Does only the attempt matter? Does only the result matter? Or do both the attempt and the result matter, and in what degree?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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