[INFP] INFP Mother & Daughter's Dating Nightmare

[alakazam]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that there are some xNFP mothers out there that can relate to this and, after going through this themselves, offer advice.


My girlfriend (24, eSFJ) and her mother (50ish?, INFP) are a case study in extreme Fi vs Fe. We'll call my girlfriend Sarah and her mother Jane (I'm sick of typing "her mother" and "my girlfriend" etc repeatedly...).

Jane, as the Fi that she is, simply does not consider the emotions of other people when forming, expressing, and dealing with hers and others' opinions. Regardless of how rational/logical/well-thought-out anything Sarah does is, her mother will express how horrible it is until she herself comes to the same conclusion.

So, whenever Sarah brings anything up and is distressing to Jane, Jane will strongly assert her opinion that it is horrible - and so are all the people that were involved. When Sarah got an apartment, it was obviously her best friend's bad influence on her so her mother then hated and demonized the best friend. When Sarah bought a car, it was obviously her "power-hungry" friend (me), so she demonized me. When Sarah has a boyfriend, such person is the most evil person in the world - so much so it justifies long notes talking about how they're just going to use her and force her to have sex and give her STDs and just completely dominate her life and suppress her free will (note: this is NOT an exaggeration).

So then Sarah turns around and argues back... But then her mother [appears to] completely shut down because she can't deal with the destruction of her internal emotional balance. So then Sarah, the Fe that she is, backs off because there is now external emotional disharmony. Consequently, she simply cannot (and never has been able to) talk about any serious issues with her mother because her mother will explode, demonize it, and then be unable to process a response.

So, naturally, her mother doesn't know we've been in a relationship since last July.

If Sarah's father (INTJ, probably) were still alive, it would definitely help, but he passed away about three years ago (I think). (Note: of all possible ways a family can lose a husband/father, the way that he passed away was the least traumatic.) (Note #2: her mother's behavior did not change at that point. It has always been this horrible.)

I intend to ask Sarah to marry me. We both want this, but we agreed at the very beginning that it will not happen until her mother knows... And she still doesn't.

I would greatly appreciate ANY ideas ANYBODY has about telling her - especially if you have been in the position or a similar position to Jane.

Thanks in advance!

 

[alakazam]

Yes, I have, numerous times. I've helped her with a few things in the past and she knows me.

 

[Ivy]

As an INFP mother, I simply can't relate to the idea of not considering the emotions of other people when forming/expressing my own opinions about their behavior. I may not do it in the same way as a person who leads with Fe, but having harmony with and truly understanding my children (and having them know that they are truly understood) are extremely important to me.

To be honest I don't identify with any of Jane's actions in your post, they are so extreme. It's a foreign mindset to me. Which is why it seems like you might be demonizing Jane a bit in your language about her. Either you are not giving an objective account of the details or Jane is mentally ill, and if that's the case then talking to other INFP mothers is not going to be much help. I would urge you to really try to take an objective look at that as well. Be frank with yourself- are you trying to see her perspective at all? If after you do this it does turn out that Jane is most likely mentally ill, you may need to adjust your expectations of how normal a relationship you can have with her- I recommend a book called "Children of the Self-Absorbed" for tips on how to forge a workable relationship with someone who is toxic but whom you can't cut out entirely.

I know it must be frustrating not to feel able to be open with your girlfriend's mother about your relationship. I hope you reach some resolution soon.

 

[The Great One]

Hi all,

I'm hoping that there are some xNFP mothers out there that can relate to this and, after going through this themselves, offer advice.


My girlfriend (24, eSFJ) and her mother (50ish?, INFP) are a case study in extreme Fi vs Fe. We'll call my girlfriend Sarah and her mother Jane (I'm sick of typing "her mother" and "my girlfriend" etc repeatedly...).

Jane, as the Fi that she is, simply does not consider the emotions of other people when forming, expressing, and dealing with hers and others' opinions. Regardless of how rational/logical/well-thought-out anything Sarah does is, her mother will express how horrible it is until she herself comes to the same conclusion.

So, whenever Sarah brings anything up and is distressing to Jane, Jane will strongly assert her opinion that it is horrible - and so are all the people that were involved. When Sarah got an apartment, it was obviously her best friend's bad influence on her so her mother then hated and demonized the best friend. When Sarah bought a car, it was obviously her "power-hungry" friend (me), so she demonized me. When Sarah has a boyfriend, such person is the most evil person in the world - so much so it justifies long notes talking about how they're just going to use her and force her to have sex and give her STDs and just completely dominate her life and suppress her free will (note: this is NOT an exaggeration).

So then Sarah turns around and argues back... But then her mother [appears to] completely shut down because she can't deal with the destruction of her internal emotional balance. So then Sarah, the Fe that she is, backs off because there is now external emotional disharmony. Consequently, she simply cannot (and never has been able to) talk about any serious issues with her mother because her mother will explode, demonize it, and then be unable to process a response.

So, naturally, her mother doesn't know we've been in a relationship since last July.

If Sarah's father (INTJ, probably) were still alive, it would definitely help, but he passed away about three years ago (I think). (Note: of all possible ways a family can lose a husband/father, the way that he passed away was the least traumatic.) (Note #2: her mother's behavior did not change at that point. It has always been this horrible.)

I intend to ask Sarah to marry me. We both want this, but we agreed at the very beginning that it will not happen until her mother knows... And she still doesn't.

I would greatly appreciate ANY ideas ANYBODY has about telling her - especially if you have been in the position or a similar position to Jane.

Thanks in advance!

OMG! Jane is a 1w2 with a stick up her ass. Your problem isn' t Fe so much as it is an Fe user who is a 1w2. That's my most hated type.

 

[prplchknz]

there's something else going on with jane than type related stuff. like a personality disorder. wait that's mean I dunno but something psychologically at least. because healthy types don't act this way. could be an ESTJ stuck in an INFP shadow, just a thought.

 

[Ivy]

OMG! Jane is a 1w2 with a stick up her ass. Your problem isn' t Fe so much as it is an Fe user who is a 1w2. That's my most hated type.

Jane is the Fi user in the OP. OP's gf is the Fe user.

 

[Seymour]

Umm... your description sounds way more like some kind of personality disorder (like borderline personality disorder, narcissism, etc) than any kind of healthy Fi. At a surface level, it seems like Jane is threatened by others getting close to her daughter, and not okay with Sarah having her own opinions and relationships. That's not MBTI type.

 

[cafe]

Yeah, the only type that is is crazy. All you can do with crazy is damage control. Elope and move several hours away. Visit one or two times a year and stay in a hotel when you do.

 

[The Great One]

Jane is the Fi user in the OP. OP's gf is the Fe user.

Either way, she seems like an unhealthy 1 with a stick up her ass.

 

[citizen cane]

OMG! Jane is a 1w2 with a stick up her ass. Your problem isn' t Fe so much as it is an Fe user who is a 1w2. That's my most hated type.

That someone would post something like this in such a serious topic thread is incredibly juvenile.


Moving on, [MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] seems to have provided the best way to immediately proceed, both in this conversation and in action. That said, if/when you confront her mother, I would definitely recommend that you make every effort to demonstrate that your girlfriend has come to any decisions on her own and without any coercion from you.

 

[The Great One]

That someone would post something like this in such a serious topic thread is incredibly juvenile.


Moving on, [MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] seems to have provided the best way to immediately proceed, both in this conversation and in action. That said, if/when you confront her mother, I would definitely recommend that you make every effort to demonstrate that your girlfriend has come to any decisions on her own and without any coercion from you.

It's true though. She is exhibiting all the behaviors of an unhealthy 1.

 

[alakazam]

Ok... I know two NFPs (the mother and another of my friends), and they're awfully similar in a lot of ways (however, I don't think my friend would be quite like this...).

On the one hand, it's nice to know it isn't a personality type issue - speaks very well for the rest of you!

On the other hand... this sucks.

Thanks for your help though!

 

[alakazam]

could be an ESTJ stuck in an INFP shadow, just a thought.

Hm. That could explain some of her characteristics that seem strange for an NFP. She majored in - and later taught for a while - mathematics. I don't get the same vibe from her that I do from other STJs I know - then again, they're all male..... But, thinking about it, that really rude lady in one of my meetings at work was an STJ, and I can see some similarities.

 

[prplchknz]

Hm. That could explain some of her characteristics that seem strange for an NFP. She majored in - and later taught for a while - mathematics. I don't get the same vibe from her that I do from other STJs I know - then again, they're all male..... But, thinking about it, that really rude lady in one of my meetings at work was an STJ, and I can see some similarities.

oh so INFPs have to be crap at math? and can't enjoy it. I enjoy algebra.

 

[alakazam]

No: but are you interested enough to major in it and teach it? I may be wrong, but it just seems out of character. My comment had nothing to do with ability - just interest.

 

[prplchknz]

No: but are you interested enough to major in it and teach it? I may be wrong, but it just seems out of character.

not at all. I'm just saying that you shouldn't stereotype. types don't come from what one has a passion for but rather how they process that passion. this probably doesn't make sense. but it should, so we're going with it makes sense.

 

[alakazam]

This is off topic, but I'm going to reply once more.

I'm not saying that NFs can't have a passion in mathematics. I'm saying that, in my experience, in general, the way you pick your passions often leads you to something other than mathematics in the exact same way that what I look for in my passions leads me away from things like singing and painting. That is NOT to say that I can't, for some reason, do it, enjoy it, be good at it, and teach it - just that it's far less likely you'll find somebody like me doing that than it is to find somebody like me working on computers/electronics.

If you want to avoid stereotyping, then MBTI is not for you. That's what this tool does. We, however, realize that it is a broad categorization and that people are different but, for some strange reason, tend to be fairly accurately described holistically in MBTI. What I was doing was the exact same thing.

 

[prplchknz]

This is off topic, but I'm going to reply once more.

I'm not saying that NFs can't have a passion in mathematics. I'm saying that, in my experience, in general, the way you pick your passions often leads you to something other than mathematics in the exact same way that what I look for in my passions leads me away from things like singing and painting. That is NOT to say that I can't, for some reason, do it, enjoy it, be good at it, and teach it - just that it's far less likely you'll find somebody like me doing that than it is to find somebody like me working on computers/electronics.

If you want to avoid stereotyping, then MBTI is not for you. That's what this tool does. We, however, realize that it is a broad categorization and that people are different but, for some strange reason, tend to be fairly accurately described holistically in MBTI. What I was doing was the exact same thing.

forget it, i have nothing nice to say to the likes of you.and you're just covering your ass at this point, because someone called you out on it.

 

[Southern Kross]

To be honest I don't identify with any of Jane's actions in your post, they are so extreme. It's a foreign mindset to me. Which is why it seems like you might be demonizing Jane a bit in your language about her. Either you are not giving an objective account of the details or Jane is mentally ill, and if that's the case then talking to other INFP mothers is not going to be much help.

Agreed. That's completely foreign behaviour to me too.

She doesn't sound like a P at all for starters. I can't see a P having that much desire to affect and impress herself on others, nor are we anywhere near that assertive in general. As for Fi, that's the tertiary or inferior kind, not the dom/aux usage:

As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

Perhaps the most typical manifestation of tertiary and inferior Fi is an attitude of psychologizing other people: a sort of pseudo-empathy in which one explains other people's behavior in terms of pitiful needs and psychological flaws that anyone would be ashamed to have. "Notice the defensiveness. He clings desperately to his ideas. Such weakness." (Nearly all psychological theories offer plenty of ammo for psychologizing, including Lenore Thomson's ideas.) Where developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way, tertiary and inferior Fi typically lead you to find something in your own soul that you despise, in terms of which you can "explain" them and justify putting them down.

Sounds like an unhealthy TJ e1 (as [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] said).

 

[alakazam]

I honestly don't know how to reply to such irrationality... Besides perhaps stating that I don't know how and move on...

(Note: this was in response to [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] - not [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] who posted right after her)