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  1. #31
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    @fia

    I appreciate your taking the time to differentiate between INFPs and INFJs. I still don't relate to one more than the other. Deciding on my type honestly doesn't matter too much to me, but I'm curious how well you relate to the following:
    (although I'm not sure if the above has anything to do with Fi-Ne or Ni-Fe, or if it's more related to sx-dominance)
    I do relate to that quote, but I am also a sx-dom. There is an interesting tension in the INFJ type because there is a need for autonomy and connection. There is a need for a great deal of time to introvert to make sense of the Ni-Ti aspect, and yet without some connection there is absolutely a feeling of non-existence. Existential isolation is one of the dominant driving forces in my life and is the reason I am in the arts, because when I create a work that someone else connects with, I feel there is something not isolated.



    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    If this is an accurate portrayal of Ni, then I'm definitely an Ni-dom. But it seems as though I've heard INFPs describe their mental processes similarly...?
    That is one aspect of my experience, and I have always spent large amounts of time in nature, obtaining an inexplicable sense of the eternal. I am comfortable thinking without language, which is why I have always been mystified by those who say that thought is dependent on language because in my experience it is clearly not.

    I work harder than some Ni-dom to create a structured sense of reality because my Ti is rather strong. I have spent a couple of decades living and working with Ti-doms, and especially because of empathy, this has influenced me a great deal. I feel a great deal of tension and frustration with language which is at odds with my INTP partner who has a high level of giftedness with language and relies on it to construct complex logical structures of ideas. When we resolve conflicts he sometimes analyzes our comparative semantic spaces, which I am infinitely charmed and fascinated by, and so it seems to work. It is interesting that many INFJ descriptions also talk about their use of metaphor, along with this description of rejecting the symbolic. I'll have to think about that for a while. I do reject archetypes, and there is a difference with my INFP sister who creates symbols and projections based on powerful experience (Fi-Si). I feel I often begin with a blank slate in many instances moreso than some people.

    Edit: What could distinguish this transcending of language of both Fi and Ni could be the nature of what is inexplicable. Would Fi have an inexplicable sense of deep perception of the intensely personal, while Ni has an inexplicable sense of the nature of reality, a glimpse into eternity, a glimpse outside of self to the boundless and cohesiveness of reality?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it isn't a description of a cognitive process, it's a self-help styled sales pitch taking something real and promising you it's a sign of hidden superpowers (not quite at the level of "the secret" but damn close).
    I don't know your opinion of Jung's Ni description, but from what I remember, the two seem pretty similar. I don't see how Thompson's description of Ni makes it sound like a superpower.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I do relate to that quote, but I am also a sx-dom. There is an interesting tension in the INFJ type because there is a need for autonomy and connection. There is a need for a great deal of time to introvert to make sense of the Ni-Ti aspect, and yet without some connection there is absolutely a feeling of non-existence. Existential isolation is one of the dominant driving forces in my life and is the reason I am in the arts, because when I create a work that someone else connects with, I feel there is something not isolated.
    I tend to be extremely private about my interests in art, music, poetry, etc. because I'm hyper-aware of the fact that no one will perceive it exactly as I do, especially those with a stronger attachment to archetype and symbolism (which only stifle the scope of perception). I'm obsessed with the ideas of nuance and immediacy, and I'm always terrified that what I feel the most connection with will seem melodramatic or highfalutin to others. It's such a relief when I meet someone who doesn't see that, who's able to side-step around the most obvious "messages" of a work and really get to the heart of it. Even if his perception is completely unique to him, that deeply personal/subjective approach itself makes me feel less alone. Does that make any sense to you?

    That is one aspect of my experience, and I have always spent large amounts of time in nature, obtaining an inexplicable sense of the eternal. I am comfortable thinking without language, which is why I have always been mystified by those who say that thought is dependent on language because in my experience it is clearly not.

    I work harder than some Ni-dom to create a structured sense of reality because my Ti is rather strong. I have spent a couple of decades living and working with Ti-doms, and especially because of empathy, this has influenced me a great deal. I feel a great deal of tension and frustration with language which is at odds with my INTP partner who has a high level of giftedness with language and relies on it to construct complex logical structures of ideas. When we resolve conflicts he sometimes analyzes our comparative semantic spaces, which I am infinitely charmed and fascinated by, and so it seems to work. It is interesting that many INFJ descriptions also talk about their use of metaphor, along with this description of rejecting the symbolic. I'll have to think about that for a while. I do reject archetypes, and there is a difference with my INFP sister who creates symbols and projections based on powerful experience (Fi-Si). I feel I often begin with a blank slate in many instances moreso than some people.
    I don't know if I've ever actually encountered another person who thought this way. you might find this article interesting.

    about INFPs and symbols -- I've noticed this too. regardless of whether I am one, I've always felt this deep-seated disconnection from many INFPs and I think it might be related to what you've touched on.

    yeah, both of the Ti-doms I know are gifted writers, it seems to come so naturally to them...whereas I have to spend an hour on a paragraph just to make it vaguely cohesive.

    Edit: What could distinguish this transcending of language of both Fi and Ni could be the nature of what is inexplicable. Would Fi have an inexplicable sense of deep perception of the intensely personal, while Ni has an inexplicable sense of the nature of reality, a glimpse into eternity, a glimpse outside of self to the boundless and cohesiveness of reality?
    I've been wondering about that, too, and I think you might be onto something.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    J types have their first J function in extraverted attitude.
    also it helps to see the similarity between for example the two NTP types, if INTP would be INTJ, that would just cause problems because now INTJ and ENTP would be more similar with each others than ENTP and INTP.. but like i mentioned, its the direction of the first J function that makes the big difference in the types judging tendencies, not whether the J function is dom or aux
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I don't know your opinion of Jung's Ni description, but from what I remember, the two seem pretty similar. I don't see how Thompson's description of Ni makes it sound like a superpower.
    have you read his crap? Jung was a mystic, and while IMO he was onto something, he was actually on to a rather natural organic mechanisms, emergent aspects of what happens when you have a species whose brain is specialized in pattern recognition, and didn't have the mental vocabulary to explain it without it.

    edit: though i guess i am derailing the thread.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    have you read his crap? Jung was a mystic, and while IMO he was onto something, he was actually on to a rather natural organic mechanisms, emergent aspects of what happens when you have a species whose brain is specialized in pattern recognition, and didn't have the mental vocabulary to explain it without it.

    edit: though i guess i am derailing the thread.
    I've only read a small part of Psychological Types and random excerpts from other works, so no, I'm not very familiar with Jung's crap. I do remember being somewhat put off by the flowery language -- but tone it down a little, and the descriptions would seem to me to be pretty good. I think they're valuable as long as the reader remembers that he is describing natural organic mechanisms. I guess I assumed when I read them that the mystic language was just part of his writing style, and not reflective of how he viewed the connection between personality + neuroscience. Did he really not acknowledge its existence? (I guess I wouldn't be surprised, since I did read the first few chapters of The Book of Job.)

    the thread has already been derailed several times. it's in the wrong part of the forum, anyway, so people might as well keep veering off topic. it was borne of disorder, it will continue in disorder.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I've only read a small part of Psychological Types and random excerpts from other works, so no, I'm not very familiar with Jung's crap. I do remember being somewhat put off by the flowery language -- but tone it down a little, and the descriptions would seem to me to be pretty good. I think they're valuable as long as the reader remembers that he is describing natural organic mechanisms. I guess I assumed when I read them that the mystic language was just part of his writing style, and not reflective of how he viewed the connection between personality + neuroscience. Did he really not acknowledge its existence? (I guess I wouldn't be surprised, since I did read the first few chapters of The Book of Job.)

    the thread has already been derailed several times. it's in the wrong part of the forum, anyway, so people might as well keep veering off topic. it was borne of disorder, it will continue in disorder.
    that's the spirit!

    as for jung, i've being told by an ancient @Oakysage that apparently he believed he got his insight through divination - by speaking to ghosts. i am not sure the source thought. either way, i wouldn't dismiss it based on that - he did examine a lot of patients on his path there, and it seems entirely natural to me that some Ni users will use mysticism as a crutch to rationalize their insight.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's the spirit!

    as for jung, i've being told by an ancient @Oakysage that apparently he believed he got his insight through divination - by speaking to ghosts. i am not sure the source thought. either way, i wouldn't dismiss it based on that - he did examine a lot of patients on his path there, and it seems entirely natural to me that some Ni users will use mysticism as a crutch to rationalize their insight.
    oh, wow. I wonder if he ever actually wrote about that.

    My dad seems to be an INFJ, and he's pretty adamant (though private, because he knows how it comes across) about his belief that God can lead people in certain directions, and that a person can know -- if they're clear-headed enough? -- when it's God talking to them and not their own instincts/desires. I think it's a pretty flawed idea and I wish he would examine it more closely.

    I do identify with some of the negative aspects of Ni you've mentioned. And I've realized that, while I see myself more as an FP, I definitely come across (at least irl) as an FJ. So the answers to my initial question do make sense, and I guess INFJ is most probable.

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