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  1. #71
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhus View Post
    I didn't see this question. There were a lot of accusatory posts!

    Don't take it personally because your a 7 wing. I have had 7 wing ENFP friends before, but I'll give one example. One friend loved to read about history and economics and other stuff but believed horoscopes to be valid scientific tools. In short, she was quite intelligent but believed in things that made no sense. As an INTP, I'd reject half the things she believed because they were objectively false. Despite her intelligence, she didn't take any rational path to knowledge.

    Horoscopes are easy to test. Take a sample of one thousand people and sort their personalities by birth date and check for a pattern. This has been done and there are heat maps showing no correlation between birth date and personality. Predictions have also been tracked with no strong correlation with reality This evidence she would completely dismiss. This is a sample size of only one, but the few other 7s I knew were like this. Some 2/3(?) wing ENFPs I knew were also no good at thinking stuff through.

    I really don't understand the reaction. INTPs are kind of social outcasts by nature. That's how a lot of us are. As thinking is not one of the top cognitive functions of ENFPs, wouldn't there be some ENFPs who are not intelligent or rational out there? Do you think I'm saying that all ENFPs are dumb?
    While horoscopes might be pseudoscience, there is something you might not have thought. You see there is an option that the time of birth effects the person in other ways. When a kid is the age where he first starts to understand the world a bit. Now think if that kid learns about the world when its the summer versus when its -20C cold outside and has to be padded up when going outside and its dark outside most the time. I know this might not effect many people as much as others, but im sure that some types of kids(not talking about MBTI type) will be heavily effected by this. Also, you need to keep in mind that astrology today isnt what it used to be, the current version has been altered quite a bit from what it used to be. So even tho the current model might not have enough correlation to be taken seriously scientifically(P .05), astrology might have some truth in it still. Who knows if stars in the sky effect us more than we believe and the shapes we perceive mostly unconsciously do affect us. Who knows? Only thing i can say for sure is that you cant disprove that.

    This is what people are talking about when saying not to bash down ENFPs ideas and just tell that their view is retarded. I mean if you would respond to her interest on astrology(and other stuff) the same way as i answered to you, she would most likely respond to you differently.

    edit. also one crucial aspect you need to be aware of is that this ENFP might had noticed subconsciously for example that many people who first started learning about the world during summer are different from those who first started learning in winter, but not be able to consciously get an reason for this, since it might be perceived through intuition. astrology might correlate with this intuition of hers and she starts to believe in astrology. if you just respond with "astrology is full of horse shit", that goes against her intuition, and as an Ne dom, she will have faith in her intuition. So a better way would be to find a reason for this intuition with something i explained above.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #72
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    As you would imagine I agree wholeheartedly with you and the beautiful @Amargith but is this really a Ti-Fi disconnect? 'Cause I'm willing to wager that regardless of how your functions line up...most people are probably not going to be all that 'enchanted' by someone that is constantly giving off 'you are clearly of below average intelligence' and 'I'm arrogant' vibes. Perhaps some do find this kind of thing appealing...but for most of us...yah no.

    I'm Ne>Ni>Fi>Ti... In other words, I don't have a problem with Ti. But I do have a problem with 'emotionally stunted intellectually arrogant' people.
    ^Yeah...this!

    The ENFPs have shown a lot of grace in answering these questions.

    To the OP, I know you said why you like ENFP but from what I can see it doesn't really look like it. It looks more like, "You're so pretty, bouncy, fun, and not very bright. Not very intellectual. So how 'bout it?" Not even a pretty, bouncy woman just wants to be admired and wanted for her pretty bounciness. There's more than that to her. Way, way more.

    If you admire someone who is intellectual and values you the things you do, why don't you just go out and get that person? I might be wrong but it sounds like you're complaining about ENFPs not being what you want them to be. Who wants to deal with that?

  3. #73
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhus View Post
    Don't take it personally because your a 7 wing. I have had 7 wing ENFP friends before, but I'll give one example. One friend loved to read about history and economics and other stuff but believed horoscopes to be valid scientific tools. In short, she was quite intelligent but believed in things that made no sense. As an INTP, I'd reject half the things she believed because they were objectively false. Despite her intelligence, she didn't take any rational path to knowledge.

    Horoscopes are easy to test. Take a sample of one thousand people and sort their personalities by birth date and check for a pattern. This has been done and there are heat maps showing no correlation between birth date and personality. Predictions have also been tracked with no strong correlation with reality This evidence she would completely dismiss. This is a sample size of only one, but the few other 7s I knew were like this. Some 2/3(?) wing ENFPs I knew were also no good at thinking stuff through.
    First, that would be 'Don't take it personally because you're a 7 wing.' (<--haha on this occasion I couldn't resist). Secondly, I'm not a 7 wing. I'm a 7 core. And lastly, if you like 'them ENFP ladies...yet feel the e7s aren't quite up to par as far as your intellectual capabilities and standards are concerned...then I've got some bad, bad news for you dude. Most ENFPs are e7. In fact, many enneagram professionals do not believe a different enneagram placement is even possible for an ENFP. In other words, they subscribe to the thought that if you are an ENFP you are either a 7w6 or a 7w8 and that's it...done, period. I personally do not believe in that theory...but still, I most definitely feel ENFPs like skylights and Amargith are extremely rare birds indeed (which is probably why they have come to this site and I'm so happy both of them are here).

    I'm not convinced all the females you believed to be ENFP were actually ENFP...but I can tell you this. If they were ENFP...the chances they were e7s...specifically e7w6 are extremely high. <--And on top of all of that...e5s and e7s are connected via the enneagram and are often profoundly drawn to one another. So now...I'm heading down to Vegas to place my bets. Oh, and I've worked in science for a good portion of my life. ((I don't know shit about 'code' because I'd rather get a root canal I believe than learn about something like that. 'Coding', however, does not = intelligence or analytical reasoning abilities.)) And fwiw...I have read just as many professional journal articles with statistical evidence that seems to support the validity of astrology as I have articles with statistical data that renders it bunk. Come on INTP...if you are as bright as you claim you must know all about statistics and how politics can shape them.

    And while we are on the subject...I would delve into some of the research they are currently doing on Dominant Intuition and intelligence... The social scientific research that has stemmed from research they have done and are currently doing on ADD/ADHD and (high) intelligence. My point, is... much of what you are labeling 'airheadedness' might not be all that 'airy' after all.

    I really don't understand the reaction. INTPs are kind of social outcasts by nature. That's how a lot of us are. As thinking is not one of the top cognitive functions of ENFPs, wouldn't there be some ENFPs who are not intelligent or rational out there? Do you think I'm saying that all ENFPs are dumb?

  4. #74
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    LOL!
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  5. #75

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    Enfp are very helpful.

  6. #76
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Most ENFPs are e7. In fact, many enneagram professionals do not believe a different enneagram placement is even possible for an ENFP. In other words, they subscribe to the thought that if you are an ENFP you are either a 7w6 or a 7w8 and that's it...done, period. I personally do not believe in that theory...but still, I most definitely feel ENFPs like skylights and Amargith are extremely rare birds indeed (which is probably why they have come to this site and I'm so happy both of them are here). [...] If they were ENFP...the chances they were e7s...specifically e7w6 are extremely high.
    This is interesting, Starry. Thank you for the compliment for one , I am so glad you are here too! I've particularly learned a lot from seeing us both settle on our respective e-types because we are similar but different in important ways. But two, I haven't read about the idea of e7/ENFP mutual inclusion. I agree with you that e7 ENFPs (and ESFPs) are most common, certainly, though I was under the impression that ENFP 4s are fairly prevalent, too. The ENFPs I know IRL well enough to confidently type have either self-identified as or are highly suspected by me to be 7w6 (close friend), 4w3 (old friend), 7w6 (cousin), 7w6 (classmate), and 4w5 (close friend). I believe that I also know a single ENFP 3w2 who comes off like an ENFJ at first.

    My point, is... much of what you are labeling 'airheadedness' might not be all that 'airy' after all.
    Yes, definitely. I think we are often so "airheaded" because we are running so much conceptualization in our minds and neglect to connect with the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy
    Enfp are very helpful.
    Well thank you.

  7. #77
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Tl;dr tip: find yourself an NFJ instead, it will be easier on you.

    @ The astrology thing.

    I like to play around with astrology, tinker with it. I personally do not care that it may or may not be possible/true, whatever. It is a fun what-if scenario, it offers a ton of patterns about people that I can play with to my hearts content. Much like MBTI, enneagram and Socionics btw. I do not get into the nitty gritty of 'does this uphold the mathematical axiomas in the universe'. I like to play 'what if this were true...how would it show itself in the world, and would I be able to predict - based on these patterns - what would happen next'? And I'll test the shit out of a system playing with the patterns, determining its value to me based on that, instead of where it came from.

    To consider me stupid for that and dismiss me out of hand will make me roll my eyes at you as you are ignoring my preference for yours. You re essentially telling me that your way of looking at the world (Ti) is the only one. And that is something *I* will dismiss a potential candidate mate for in a heart beat.

    I do not expect you to believe in astrology, or even show an interest in it. I don't expect you to play with me or indulge in my little games. But I do expect you to chuck the disdain and condescension towards me for daring to engage in such activities. Pronto.

    My own INTJ has trouble with this when I found paganism. I'd tell him all about this stuff coz..well thats what we do when we get excited about something. And I could see the struggle in his eyes. The burning criticism, the need to scream 'its all bogus!', while knowing that if he went all the way there, it would cost him dearly.

    He does not get it either, and Im ok with that. Ive also stopped telling him about it coz frankly...I don't want to see that look in his eyes. He still does not understand it (and he has in fact the same attitude towards MBTI though he can see its use).

    But he has come to understand that I work *very differently* from him yet somehow - in his eyes magically - come to the same conclusions and same results as he does, with his linear, logical path. In fact, it used to be his favorite game to have me predict a result or give a conclusion on something, and then backtrack *how* I got there, coz frankly, while he knew the result was correct (since it was the same result he had in mind - arrogant as always -), he could not deny there was something to my process. But when he backtracked it...all he could find was what he would dismiss as 'fluff'. And I'd just shrug, smile and skip along to the next project.

    Nearly a decade later, he still sometimes has trouble figuring out how I got to a conclusion, though he has gotten a lot better. He still does not get my logic, but he knows the pattern I'll follow and what makes sense *to me* and somehow to the universe as well.

    So when it comes to subjects that he cannot find a logical path to - since he knows we usually come to the same conclusion - he will suspend his disbelief and trust my gut if a result is needed. Otherwise he'll just eye me in a confused way and refrain from commenting for lack of measurable data
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #78
    Member Dudesowin's Avatar
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    Isn't Astrology just an attempt at a dynamic MBTI of social heredity? I always giggle at the fact I am Aquarius what is that like the God's Waterboy or something lol. I piss in your drink mofo! xD
    Mastery is its own reward.

  9. #79
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This is interesting, Starry. Thank you for the compliment for one , I am so glad you are here too! I've particularly learned a lot from seeing us both settle on our respective e-types because we are similar but different in important ways. But two, I haven't read about the idea of e7/ENFP mutual inclusion. I agree with you that e7 ENFPs (and ESFPs) are most common, certainly, though I was under the impression that ENFP 4s are fairly prevalent, too. The ENFPs I know IRL well enough to confidently type have either self-identified as or are highly suspected by me to be 7w6 (close friend), 4w3 (old friend), 7w6 (cousin), 7w6 (classmate), and 4w5 (close friend). I believe that I also know a single ENFP 3w2 who comes off like an ENFJ at first.
    Since I'm attempting to provide Typhus with a good, overall sense of the *pure genius*... which is truly the essense, if you will, of the ENFP e7... I should probably not try and explain this here haha!

  10. #80
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Enfp are very helpful.
    This is my favorite post in the whole thread.

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