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  1. #51
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    ENFPs are excellent judges of character. I think you need to be balanced well and show them what's inside of you because they see people's character first and foremost. May be tricky for INTPs idk.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
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  2. #52
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I still don't get it. I do not get why you are attracted to a person when you label them as 'airheaded'. And I *still* haven't seen an appreciation for their strengths from any of the INTPs in here.

    All youve said is that they are airheaded, gregarious, sexy *wink wink* and you want to remove their pants (and yeah, I get that that was to just add some spice to the posts, but still). Im sorry but...I'm not your fucking blow-up doll. Nor am I arm candy. And as was stated before in this thread.. I read people well, so I *will* know that that is all you want from me. There has been no mention of appreciation, respect, not even any evidence of even noticing what you actually *like* about us. About who we are. About what it truly is you value in us. And unless you can demonstrate that - something you apparently dont even think to tell a bunch of strangers- , that you actually understand who we are and value it, you aint going near those pants, Im sorry

    If you go back to my previous posts, when I talk about INTPs, the *first* thing I did was talk about the qualities that I admire and find attractive in INTPs. Why I respect them, look up to them and enjoy their company. I do not even mention the fact that their social skills often need work, coz you know what? To me, that is something that I can work with and often actually find endearing, in a good way.

    Other than 'I wanna bed them coz they're smexy', I have yet to see the same from you guys. On the contrary, you've expressed that you clearly do not understand ENFPs by sharing that you perceive them as air headed and incapable of discussing the topics *YOU* want to discuss. You've actualy *listed* the reasons as to why you are unlikely to respect their povs, the way they go about things or consider them your equals in a relationship.

    And you expect to be let into our beds *WHY* exactly?

    ...Oh right, coz YOU feel like it.

    My bad.



    Edit:

    Ps: you've just seen Fi-logic in action. The actions, reasoning and wishes expressed by the INTPs in this thread do not add up from an Fi logic pov, at least not with the data provided thus far. Too many gaps, too many inconsistencies and potentially too little awareness as to what constitutes a good mate for your needs in terms of a long-term relationship. So either you are bs-ing about being serious in wanting an enfp partner for a relationship (and you do really just wanna sleep with us and move on), or you still have a long way to go in figuring out what makes a relationship work. Whatever the reason, at this point and in my books, you're too big of a risk to invest in emotionally- at the very least until those questions are answered and the inconsistencies have been smoothed out.
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  3. #53
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ Let @Amargith's post be a lesson in what you're likely doing wrong with your beloved ENFPs, @Typhus...
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  4. #54
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm just curious why you think the person in question isn't an ESFP or ESFJ. An SF would be very likely to see a simple act of adopting one child being doing something to change the world. Ne is more likely to be the one who has some master plan. Or Ni I guess...like Hitler.
    No way she's an ESFJ, though I could buy ESFP.

    SFs are likely to think they can change the world one person at a time.

    Taking care of aging parents, adopting unwanted children, raising grandchildren, carrying girls' heavy groceries, that's the forte of sensors, bro, not ENFPs.
    Makes sense, in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm a bit confused with @Rasofy's reaction, though. It doesn't sound like she ever implied that she wanted to change the world... She said that "she wanted to adopt a girl because she empathized with the situation of being abandoned by a parent" -- which is not about changing the world*, as much as it is trying to help an individual child to not go through what you went through. It's out of empathy, and out of wanting to help people.

    *I mean, it could be, but why assume?
    I kinda understood her at the time, but I didn't want to sound like I would appreciate the idea of adopting a child if I ever become her partner, so I gave her my honest opinion about the whole situation and then suggested volunteering.
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  5. #55
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhus View Post
    I'm INTP and I've felt the magnetic pull that only ENFPs seem to have over me. But I scare away most of them. I'm not mean or creepy so why do you run away? I'm just weird. Am I giving off some creepy vibes? I checked the mirror and I don't have an evil pulsating green boil that on my forehead.

    ENFPs, how do your perceive INTPs? I'm outgoing and clownish for an INTP.


    While I appreciate that ENFPs are attractive to you, it's sort of blindingly obvious why an ENFP wouldn't feel the same back. I don't think you've meant to, but you've continually dismissed our intelligence and analytical ability. We might not think in the same way as you, but we are N-dominant, and we live in a world of abstractions, theory, and concepts. We tend to value our theoretical competency very highly, and will readily dismiss people who interpret us at a basic external level, because so much of our important processing is taking place deep inside and is challenging to immediately translate into communication. We appreciate the people who are quickly able to "look beyond" and see that our linking speech patterns indicate complex interrelated concepts which are consistently structured. Most people who have known us for a long time are aware that we are deep thinkers, but those who meet us just briefly tend to assume we are bubbly airheads, and we reciprocally dismiss them for their superficial judgment.

    As for INTPs - I like INTPs. My father is one. I find them interesting to talk to and exceedingly useful when it comes to learning the technical specifications of essentially anything. They're creative, independent, and a bit temperamental. However, I think INTPs tend to overvalue their judgments and undervalue personal worth. Part of that includes dismissing people quickly when they aren't as logic-oriented as the INTP themselves, and dismissing the importance of thought that doesn't prioritize logic.

    7 wing ENFPs seem almost ESFP. They're not very attracted to intelligence. I've met many ENFPs but few were capable of analytical thought like INTPs.
    I'm sort of floored by this comment, lol. I've never met an ENFP for whom depth of thought wasn't a huge priority. I would agree that we don't do analytical thought like INTPs, but e6w7 ENFPs ought to be very analytical on a Ne-Te level, always running possibility-probability analysis of future events.

    I think part of your problem is that you're interpreting "intelligence" in a very INTP light.

    Here's the difference in Ne-Ti analysis and Ne-Te analysis: Ti is Introverted Thinking, and I like to think of it as "internal consistency of logic". Ti assesses systems for how well the logic operates within the system. It quickly hones in on gaps in internal reasoning, inconsistencies in definition and placement, and minor errors in calculation. When applied to a subject like philosophy, Ti takes the philosophical system at hand and analyzes it for whether it works internally. It ensures all the logical links are intact and functional, and it seeks to improve the system where it is weak. Like Fi, it looks at the "ideal beauty" of the system, whether it is accurate and precise and as good as it can be.

    However, Te is Extraverted Thinking, and it looks at the external consistency of logic. Te doesn't really care if the system works internally - it cares if it works when applied to the outside world. It seeks to categorize consistently and operate efficiently. When applied to philosophy, Te asks if the philosophy is useful in application to daily living. Coupled with Fi, it asks how much good the philosophy can realistically do, and whether it will accurately produce the results we are seeking. That's where we look for weaknesses in the system, and where we seek to improve it. Te doesn't seek beauty or idealism as much as simplistic external functioning. Through Te eyes, there's not much point in making a beautiful, pure system if it doesn't get us the results we're seeking.

    So I think to strong Ti users, Te can come off heavy-handed and shortsighted, and especially since it's only an ENFP's 3rd function, INTPs tend to dismiss ENFP's usage of logic. We're more interested in the concept itself, and what it indicates about the world, rather than the way it operates. We're also more interested in how things will be helpful to individuals, and how they can improve personal wellbeing.

    I'm attracted to ENFPs but a lot of them do register as airheads. I can't make sense of their logic. Whenever my programmer friend and I sit and discuss software, his gregarious ENFP girlfriend goes silent. I thought it was because she didn't like, know or want to learn about the subject, but I don't know. But I suspect the reason for her failure to join our cerebral activities will be insightful. Thoughts?
    Maybe she just doesn't know a lot about software, or isn't interested. Myself, I can program in terms of writing webpages by hand but I don't know much about software, and if more knowledgeable people were discussing it, I'd probably pipe down and listen, too. Is she sticking around and listening, or does she leave? If she's staying, she's interested. She'd leave if she weren't.

    Even if she weren't, though, that doesn't make her unintelligent. It just makes her not interested in programming, lol.

    I'm not saying that ENFPs who like aesthetics are shallow. But most of the ones who I met who do like aesthetics don't have much interest in abstract philosophical discussions. Even my female ENFP friend who majored in it in college was terrible at it. But our mutual ENFP male friend was interested and good at having those kind of conversations. Why? Individual differences? Enneagram differences? Perhaps ENFPs with a 5 wing are good at it?
    A distinction: all ENFPs should be interested in abstract discussion with personal factors. Not all ENFPs will be interested in abstract discussion without personal factors, and not all ENFPs will be interested in philosophical discussion. If you were pushing for a Ti-logic-based discussion on philosophy sans personal factors with your ENFP friend, then she may well have not been into it.

    In any case - if you want to get in an ENFP's pants, try to appreciate their intelligence for what it is. Recognize their theoretical fluency, their ability to conceptualize, and their abiding sense of the "big picture" and need for global significance. Recognize the deep well of idealistic compassion in their Fi, and the practical prioritization of their Te. An ENFP will never feel valued being interpreted as a sweet, chattery, bubbly airhead. We will feel valued being understood as conceptual, idealistic, communicative, and adaptive.

  6. #56
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^And that is a wrap, folks.

    @skylights
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  7. #57
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post

    Edit: @digesthisickness might be right about this. I, for one, have an irritating tendency to be much more attracted to guys who already have girlfriends, because 1) I see their real personality and sense of humor right off the bat, and 2) they're much more confident. A lot of the behavior that guys put on in an attempt to get girls to like them, really turns me off. Especially since a lot of that behavior comes from an assumption that all girls want to be waited on, and all girls want guys to come across as being almost too cool for them (regardless of whether they are or not).
    She's not right and neither are you. He could attract every SJ on the planet and if it still does nothing for his confidence (which apparently it does not) there'll be nothing to carry over in his interactions with women he does find attractive. The analogy youve just made is not even close to being valid. I'm about ready to concede though that apparently Ne using women *do* find that needy bullshit attractive, which is why you all are so quick to find excuses for the OP.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  8. #58
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    She's not right and neither are you. He could attract every SJ on the planet and if it still does nothing for his confidence (which apparently it does not) there'll be nothing to carry over in his interactions with women he does find attractive. The analogy youve just made is not even close to being valid. I'm about ready to concede though that apparently Ne using women *do* find that needy bullshit attractive, which is why you all are so quick to find excuses for the OP.
    Neither of us are excusing the OP, and I don't think either of us intends the SJ theorizing to carry over to how he acts towards ENFPs. Frankly, when I was writing that section of the post, I was completely mentally detached from the OP and assuming that how he acts around SJ women irl is completely different from 1) how he treats ENFPs, and 2) how he treats people on this thread.

    Our entire point was that SJs might find him attractive if he CUT the needy bullshit and replaced it with normal confident platonic guy behavior.


    Edit: @skylights has it right
    /thread
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  9. #59
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhus View Post
    This is excellent. I'm attracted to ENFPs but a lot of them do register as airheads. I can't make sense of their logic. Whenever my programmer friend and I sit and discuss software, his gregarious ENFP girlfriend goes silent. I thought it was because she didn't like, know or want to learn about the subject, but I don't know. But I suspect the reason for her failure to join our cerebral activities will be insightful. Thoughts?
    From what i have noticed, most of them are not airheads, but definitely arent as logic oriented people like INTPs are(as in, their consciousness isnt occupied by logic as much as ours is, but they can use logic, its just not as important for them to apply it on every situation and since they can figure it out intuitively). But you see there is more to having a sharp mind than just blind faith in logic. Even if we go to IQ testing and type, intuition correlates the strongest on high IQ, thinking some yes, but not nearly as much as intuition does. But IQ type intelligence isnt what i wanna concentrate on.

    We INTPs also are good at looking things from multiple angles, ENFPs do this usually quicker and might be able to see more perspectives to same thing since they use their creativity more on this, because they arent so fast on weeding out the logically irrelevant perspectives. This leads to what i believe was mentioned before, they might blurt out some ideas that are half thought out. You see we have introverted thinking as our dominant function, which basically looks at whats logical and what is not and screens out the illogical ones. For us this intuitively perceiving the situation from multiple angles is just fuel for our thinking. ENFPs use their thinking in totally different manner and dont consciously concentrate on it unless the situation calls for it. ENFPs use extraverted thinking, which is more directed by what they see and hear, and is something that is more concentrated on organizing things and sort of seeing the logic in things without having to be like "if X = Y + Z and T = X + Y, then T = 2X - Z" type of thing, which is something that INTPs do with our thinking much more and dont feel drained doing it(while ENFPs tend to get drained by that sort of stuff, especially if they need to do it for long). Also because their thinking isnt occupying so much of their conscious mind, its more of a background process which gets embedded to their intuition much more freely. But ENFPs do weed out their intuitions aswell, but they do it via their introverted feeling. Basically they do Ne with more Te influences and then pick out what is most valuable to them(but they dont do this weeding out as much as we do, since Fi is their secondary function, but if its something that clashes with their values they are just as fast on throwing that thing to a trash can as we are with something that is completely illogical). Personally i think this is just as rational than doing the weeding with thinking. Naturally there is more to this, but this should cover some.

    I think the most important thing is to have respect to their abilities and see the value in them. What i think might be the issue is that while for us, continuing from our Ne ideas to getting rid of the shit with our thinking is so natural for us that, well it pretty much describes who we are. When ENFP blurts out some ideas, we tend to easily just continue from that and throw off the crap, when done enough times in short time, the ENFP sees you not valuing what she is good at, throwing off some ideas.. As mentioned earlier, play with their Ne, not just use it for something you can use to get ideas and throw down the majority of.

    ENFPs are more than just airheads, even tho they might come off as ones because of the way they express themselves, and they know that they are more than that and you have to see those things that they actually are deep down and appreciate those things. If you cant do that, they will see it and perceive you as someone who isnt able to appreciate them for who they are and someone who just is attracted to their exterior(as in bubbly free spirited hot chick who you wanna dip your dick in).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  10. #60
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Our entire point was that SJs might find him attractive if he CUT the needy bullshit and replaced it with normal confident platonic guy behavior.
    I see where the disconnect occurred. I interpreted Digest's comment to mean that if he wasn't having trouble with pulling SJs, then a neediness problem problem couldn't be a possibility elsewhere. I mean, if my initial comment is that being desperate is a turn-off then the inverse also being true seems too obvious to need to point out.
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