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Thread: INFP vs INFJ

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Maybe that's what gets under Fi skin - this Ni need to make everything fit in the model. Maybe it doesn't all fit. Who's truth is the ultimate trump card?
    No, that's not even it - it's like, Ni-Fe doesn't even see Fi truth, or assign it any value in the Ni model? And that feels really annoying, since we see INFJ individual truth and you don't see ours?

    Eh, I don't know. It's not like we see your construct - we are just happy for you that you do what you do. INFJ way of being gets to exist in Fi land? But INFP's have to get vocal that our way of being is just as valid, has value before it's recognized? Something like that.

    This is not cake. Just thinking out loud, brainstorming. Words are not necessarily perfectly chosen in this series of posts ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My impression of applied MBTI theory is that Ni is either multifaceted in expressing itself very differently between individuals, or possibly that many INTJs and INFJs are actually ISTJs and ISFJs. It just seems like there are not that many people, even online, that really go for the abstract, intangible ideas. I know "idea space" well and there are not really all that many people who hang out there compared to what I'm familiar with - but my impression might be way off. Probably the most accurate way to say it is that there are Ni-doms who are only a little abstract (something between Si and Ni, like Sni-doms), but only a few that are waaaaay off in abstract land.
    Yes to this and to what you said about the conflicting Ni definitions.

    My impression of INFPs is that their sense of the internal would be based on going deep inside "Self" as opposed to going outside and letting go of the boundary of Self.
    I don't really understand the difference here / where the introspective process would greatly differ? Again, maybe tons of people are mistyped, because I haven't known INF's to display significant contrast in this respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Oh well, I went ahead and dug up that essay.

    Here is a college commencement speech that has been making the rounds lately. It’s pretty long, but it’s brilliant writing. It was by David Foster Wallace. I don’t believe that his type is known, but the INFJs at PersC claim him as their own, and I would agree with them:

    http://moreintelligentlife.com/story...-his-own-words

    ...
    "I have to ask if DFW really calculated all the consequences of his philosophy" struck me as kind of funny. I'm sure he did, or at least put an exhaustive amount of energy into the attempt. He was obsessed with it. And I don't think This is Water advocates against occasional self-centeredness at all. It is about balance, but the side DFW chose to focus on here is the one that's most often neglected.

    I have no idea whether he was INFJ or INFP either, but clearly one or the other; and if he's INFJ, I'm there with him. My mind works in essentially the same way, just much, much less brilliantly.

    Anyway, there are people here saying that INFJ is more model-oriented and some saying that INFP is. I have nothing to contribute to that particular conversation except that I'm very confused.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Maybe that's what gets under Fi skin - this Ni need to make everything fit in the model. Maybe it doesn't all fit.  Who's truth is the ultimate trump card?
    Thanks for all the great input you’ve provided, PeaceBaby.

    Mainly I’ve just been contrasting the two dominant functions and showing why INFPs and INFJs “feel” very different to me. As for Ni itself, I have a lot of admiration for it. It’s a very powerful function. It’s just that Ni conclusions are very different from Fi conclusions.

    As for the negatives of Ni: Here’s a passage from “Applying Type Dynamics to Leadership Development” by Catherine Fitzgerald and Linda K. Kirby (in the MBTI book “Developing Leaders"):

    A challenge for managers who introvert Intuition is that their creative process and ideas are private, and they do not usually communicate them until they have done a great deal of inner consideration. By then, the ideas may be so clear and convincing to the manager that he or she sees them as obvious--and, therefore, not requiring a lot of explanation--and as ready to implement. The private, long-term, visionary perspective of managers who introvert Intuition may require them to do a lot of explaining, selling, collaborating, and specifying to actually make their ideas into a reality. The manager who introverts Intuitition may be largely unaware of and/or impatient with such processes.
    Any type can be rigid in their models or theories. But Fi models tend to be more situational, whereas Ni ideas are “long-term and visionary,” IOW more systemic. So it’s easy to feel a bit overwhelmed by Ni ideas.

    Also, Ni can come across as very “inexorable”; and in that way INFJs mirror INTJs (both are Ni-doms). As the above passage details, the thought processes that make up Ni are tucked away from the world, and the final product suddenly appears in the world fully-formed, with little opportunity for appeal or argumentation from those outside the process.

    So Ni-doms may present their thoughts as self-evident. Ni-dom leaders may suddenly switch course without explanation. Having planned a move or deliberated a change in philosophy exhaustively in their inner chambers, they figure that the “rightness” of their new course should be obvious to any onlooker.

    That “exhaustive deliberation in their inner chamber” is both the main strength and the main weakness of Ni.

  4. #164
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    Ni doesn't have any "models," that's Ti. Ni is just a perception function, people.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Ni doesn't have any "models," that's Ti. Ni is just a perception function, people.
    Forgive the imprecise language, Ti person.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #166
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    ha, great, now I feel like a nitpicker

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Mainly I’ve just been contrasting the two dominant functions and showing why INFPs and INFJs “feel” very different to me. As for Ni itself, I have a lot of admiration for it. It’s a very powerful function. It’s just that Ni conclusions are very different from Fi conclusions.
    Me too. And thanks for sharing your thoughts, I enjoy your posts.

    Yes, we do 'feel' very different I agree. What's fascinating to me is how sometimes we come to the same conclusions yet from these very different processes and vantage points. So, sometimes the conclusions are more similar than one would imagine they would or should be!

    Any type can be rigid in their models or theories. But Fi models tend to be more situational, whereas Ni ideas are “long-term and visionary,” IOW more systemic. So it’s easy to feel a bit overwhelmed by Ni ideas.
    Agreed.

    Also, Ni can come across as very “inexorable”; and in that way INFJs mirror INTJs (both are Ni-doms). As the above passage details, the thought processes that make up Ni are tucked away from the world, and the final product suddenly appears in the world fully-formed, with little opportunity for appeal or argumentation from those outside the process.
    This part fascinates me too ... because most Ni doms will say that this product isn't a necessarily a final product and I respect that, but I feel you are correct as well, in that there does not appear (or dare I say feel like) there is an option to "appeal". Good stuff to think on.



    Anyways, I am just putting out strands of thought here, not polished in any way, so my apologies to Ni & Ti folks who better enjoy a more optimized and finished product.

    No agenda here either, this is my little brain puzzle I ponder on from time to time, my musings not intended to fuel any INFJ / INFP discord.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ha, great, now I feel like a nitpicker
    It suits your avatar's current expression

    It is important, but I can get sloppy when ideas are not well-formed yet in the cosmos of my mind. Putting them out in the world helps them get clearer.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    "I have to ask if DFW really calculated all the consequences of his philosophy" struck me as kind of funny. I'm sure he did, or at least put an exhaustive amount of energy into the attempt. He was obsessed with it. And I don't think This is Water advocates against occasional self-centeredness at all. It is about balance, but the side DFW chose to focus on here is the one that's most often neglected.

    I have no idea whether he was INFJ or INFP either, but clearly one or the other; and if he's INFJ, I'm there with him. My mind works in essentially the same way, just much, much less brilliantly.

    Anyway, there are people here saying that INFJ is more model-oriented and some saying that INFP is. I have nothing to contribute to that particular conversation except that I'm very confused.
    This all gets back to what I said about perceiving functions and judging functions at the start:

    Ni (the dom function of INFJ) is a perceiving function. It’s a churning, strategizing process. It’s going to focus mainly on process: *How* does one empathize? More generally: *How* does one make this thing work?

    Fi (the dom function of INFP) is a judging function. It’s a model-making process. It’s going to package the idea of empathy into a nice little emotional model suitable for application in the real world. These emotional models operate much like the logical models of Ti (which is also a judging function).

    As I see it, DFW’s speech focused almost soley on *how* one empathizes, specifically, how one breaks out of one’s current viewpoint (atheist, religious, bored commuter, shopper in a supermarket, etc.) to see things from another’s angle. That’s fine, but that’s mainly a question of process, i.e., a perceiving point of view.

    As an Fi model-maker myself, I would like to see a little more of an actual *model* on the ways empathy operates in the real world: Exactly what benefits will accrue to those who follow his advice or to the world in general? Why does this particular audience needs to be lectured on empathy? Empathy is good, of course, but so are 200 other noble causes in the world. I’m into self-improvement and working on bettering myself in lots of different ways. So why empathy before other causes? What exact problems does it solve, what does it cost, what are the trade-offs, etc. And so on, you know, the questions a newspaper reporter is supposed to ask: Who, what, why, when, where... Not just the perceiver’s “How.”

    I’m sure that if DFW had been asked these additional questions he would have had some answers thought out. Mainly I’m just noting that, left to his own devices, DFW expressed himself in a very loosey-goosey perceiver-ish manner, i.e., with the focus almost solely on process. That would indicate Ni to me, as opposed to Fi.

    There are some other things in the speech that seem very Ni to me. But I figured I would focus on the perceiver vs judger aspects of Ni and Fi to score a quick point.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ha, great, now I feel like a nitpicker
    That was a legitimate point. It sounded like decrescendo was having trouble with the fundamental perceiving/judging distinction (churning vs. model-building).

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