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Thread: INFP vs INFJ

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Don't ignore me I have....ah fuck got better things to do.
    I'm not ignoring you, hot stuff.

  2. #142
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm not ignoring you, hot stuff.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Victoria is a perfectionist in a sensory way; in an Si way, not an Ni way. I actually could buy her having Se before Ni, but not Ni dominant, that's just so fucking ridiculous. This woman is obsessed with her looks and her body and her social position. Even back in the days with the Spice Girls, she was Posh Spice, because she was held in such pretention for her tastes about things.

    That's more of an Si thing. I promise you. Educated, wealthy, and/or intelligent SJs are the most picky, pretentious people on earth, and they know their taste is better than yours, so much better than yours. Furthermore, it's the best, and normal.

    Of course courser SJs, people of less education or lower income, don't give this presentation, because what they've always known as being sensually beautiful is something like their mother's fried chicken, or that everyone wears Abercrombie, but I think you get my drift.

    If Victoria Beckham had a "vision" apparently it was to ...marry David Beckham? What the hell are you talking about? WHAT VISION? You mean her fashion creations, right? Not exactly a huge vision for a former model and person coming from wealth. Easy peasy, and easily created from life experience and resources.

    She isn't an extrovert and she doesn't have any Fe expression. If she's an SP, she's an SFP not an ESTP, and if she's an NF, then apparently she's an INFP. I couldn't even buy her as an ENFP.

    She has strong Sensing of some kind, seems Thinking, and has the limited emotional facial expression of an Fi type.

    I find her very Sensing and Fi. But too polished and consistently/publicly perfectionistic to be an SFP.

    Bullied and people threw rocks at her? I would say introvert. Definitely NOT ENFj. My BFF from high school is an ENFJ, and she's extremely smooth and charming.

    I've recently discovered a new way to get greens into my system. I eat a lot of sandwiches, but I'm pretty impatient to deal with a head of lettuce, so I started buying spinach. They give my sandwiches a lot more texture, and the flavor is actually very satisfying.

  4. #144
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    She said something that stayed with me, along the line of how she always thought she was INFP, until she started to realize that she lacked something she saw in other INFP posters, and she called it "lightness of spirit".

    After almost 5 years in a relationship with my INFP, I can attest that this is true in my experience as well. This "lightness" does not necessarily mean happy or light-hearted. If Fe is like the warm, green earth, Fi (+ Ne) is like the sky and clouds. There is a strange freedom to it that I find foreign and beautiful.
    I agree with this. In my irl experience, this is one consistent difference. While I'm around friends who are enthusiastic I often soak it up like a sponge and mirror it back, but I believe generally the INFJ default has a lot more gravitas (possibly more than any other single type).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  5. #145
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    But I understand, your knowledge is greater than my knowledge. Victoria Beckham is ISTJ and INFJ's have absolutely no appreciation for finer tastes or seeing their vision come to life.
    Ni vision is abstract and when combined with Fe tends to involve ideals about subjective systems involving people or ideas.

    I'll give you some examples of my visions:
    I create artistic expressions to increase people's empathy about the emotional and psychological experiences of others.

    I spent years in a university system and found that cut-throat competition and rigid presentation of information can reduce many personality types ability to create. Because of this I am trying to create systems that develop creativity with an absence of competition, and instead focus on cooperation.

    I also have a dream of having a community of hippies in the forest who manage to go off the grid, have a collaborative greenhouse, etc. because I see many problems with the systems that are in place in society. (This vision has a lot more concrete elements and so is not as distilled a Ni vision, but in my interpretation it is.)

    I would say that for a distilled Ni-dom, Se-inferior, anything in the concrete world that is valued is in some way tied to an internal ideal, an abstract system of ideas. Concrete things are used and perceived as a way of manifesting the intangible, but are assumed to fall short, to create a finite glimpse into something that can't be harnessed. Choosing something to wear, taking a picture, performing a song, these are all like cupping your hands to scoop water from the ocean and to try to declare, "this is the ocean".
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #146
    Junior Member Castameare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    except the Si attitude in INFJs can be similar to one in NPs in general. For instance, a common Si attitude known as the "Fi-Si loop" in INFPs is feeling like the past has made a cage for us, that we cannot escape it (a haunting of sorts); yet not using personal experience to navigate the future but instead blowing it out of proportion as a sort of doom for the future (perhaps also a mix of how Ni is supposed to work for us). The past is sort of irrelevant as anything useful, but still a dark cloud hanging over you. I have a tendency to trust or believe in my theories over what my first-hand experience has told me. I find it difficult to approach a novel problem or new situation using my own concrete experience, which I deem too specific or narrow to reflect the multiple realities that could unfold. It's like "that was then, this is now, variables have changed, so that is irrelevant". The problem here is when it actually leads to you repeating the same mistakes because you stupidly think that enough has changed that the same action will lead to new results. It's kind of crappy Ne because it's using Si to not change yourself (poor Si In NFPs is "I will not change who I am in a factual/concrete way!!!" ie "I will not wear your uniform!"), but not using it to see how certain realities signal outcomes you can trust to unfold, therefore you must change yourself to produce the reality you want.
    regarding Fi - Si loop (INFP) Ni - Ti Loop (INFJ) that people like to describe.

    I always saw this as kind of being too invested on your Introverted perspective that you kind of get out of balance. You get dragged too much onto one side. Like it is the first stage before drift off to the inferior and your in - the - grip - moment.

    You hold to long onto the Dominant perspective and try to find refugee in your Tertiary function which has the same introverted attitude, your ego tries to maintain the introverted dominant perspective. So when they describe this moment it actually all happens internally. They may retreat and harbour over some thoughts they cannot quite get a grip on, instead of facing the issue at face value (aka their extroverted function - instead of seeking the answer outside of themselves, they turn inwardly) but they don't get any results because the tertiary is kind of the 'Eternal Child' complex, you might enjoy to approach it in a very enthusiastic manner but thing it's not that much under your conscious control (when you're kind of still young) and harbouring too long about it alone makes you give the feeling of stagnation or repetitive thinking.

    So you might seek out for someone to guide 'the internal child'. I for example know that i react more favourably, if someone approaches me and presents me a situation or topic in a very objective, structural, thought through manner, someone where i see they own this function more and guide me through the rough points or problems i was harbouring over in my head.

    So Si in INFP's, like Ti in INFJ's, is probably still seen as a part of their conscious internal world, you still see how it might affect you and just have this attitude - I just need to think about it a little bit, or i just need some guidance here and there, but i will get through it.

    But Si in INFJ it's like the most repressed function and most INFJ's will not know how it works for them or what it actually represents.

    I once read an interesting article about how INFJ under immense stress may show some signs of really bad Si attitude which actually has nothing to do with the normal conscious use of Si, it kind of gets inflated by their Ni.
    They may be so immerged in their Ni world and try to get a hold on the external sensing environment they may don't focus on what is actually there (Se) and work with this, it turns it into a subjective view on the sensing world getting all NO THIS HAS TO BE EXACTLY LIKE HOW IMAGINED, EXACTLY THIS COLOUR! Ni Ego tries to inflate Si

    Si as the function which deals with a subjective, introverted seninsing notion you have about an object meets Ni.
    The impression i want from my build up sensing object should exactly live to a subjective notion/model in my head (up to the smallest details). They get a very stressed out the sesning impression doens't fit to their intuitional notion. They might try to change little things until it just feels right, like when i thought about it i got this and this intuitional notion about it, but this sensing detail/impression i get from it just doesn't match up

    stereotypical artist/designer/etc. who totally stresses himself over the fact that this white is not exactly THE white he wanted - read as envisioned, maybe the Girl in Black Swan was a Ni dom, in grip of her Si DEMON.

    Other signs can be excessive cleaning, ordering, exercising or control on sensing things and trying to mold them into sth.they have envisioned.
    What they recognize is how little control they have on their sensing world (Se inferior grip moment) and try to be rigid about it and control it with every little detail.

  7. #147
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castameare View Post
    ...
    But Si in INFJ it's like the most repressed function and most INFJ's will not know how it works for them or what it actually represents.

    I once read an interesting article about how INFJ under immense stress may show some signs of really bad Si attitude which actually has nothing to do with the normal conscious use of Si, it kind of gets inflated by their Ni. Like when they get so immerged in their Ni world and try to get a hold on the external sensing environment they may don't focus on what is actually there (Se) they may turn it into a subjective view on the sensing world getting all NO THIS HAS TO BE EXACTLY LIKE HOW IMAGINED THIS, EXACTLY THIS COLOUR like Ni tries to inflate Si, the outside sensing model should exectly live to a subjective notion/model in your head, up to the smallest details. They get a very stressed out attitude about the sensing world because something doesn't quite fit to the picture or notion they had in mind. (like i don't just feel this is right/lining up with my idea, when i thought about it in my head everything was perfect, but this (sensing detail) is just not right)

    stereotypical artist/designer/etc. who totally stresses himself over the fact that this white is not exactly THE white he wanted - read as envisioned

    Other signs can be excessive cleaning, ordering, exercising or control on sensing details and try to get them how they have envisioned them in their head.
    They just see how little control they have onto the sensing world (Se inferior grip moment) and try to be rigid about it and control it with every little detail.
    All of this theory can become confusing almost like it is possible to explain all behaviors within each category. I can see that what you describe could be possible, but there are also descriptions of how INFJs under stress indulge in Se, in risky sensory behavior. Could the INFJs who do this actually be ISFJs? or INFPs?

    My husband (INTP) and I (INFJ) have been under a lot of stress at times, and it is very consistent that under stress he needs the concrete world to remain the same and be predictable, and I become adaptable to the point of not knowing my own preferences. We are both quite abstract and feel more mastery over the internal world of ideas and both struggle with our connection to the concrete, but we do consistently retreat to these opposite poles when not balanced. He has tertiary Si and I have inferior Se, so it fits with that aspect of the theory.

    But I can see how it is possible to explain the opposite as you have. I think this makes it all quite confusing. What do the individual categories mean if such a range is possible within each category?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I've recently discovered a new way to get greens into my system. I eat a lot of sandwiches, but I'm pretty impatient to deal with a head of lettuce, so I started buying spinach. They give my sandwiches a lot more texture, and the flavor is actually very satisfying.
    Yeah, eat more spinach, I agree.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think what you say here makes a lot of sense. Noticing just how many INFJs and INFPs experience confusion about type, I've been noticing a number of conflicting descriptions for both the Ni-Fe dynamics and the Fi-Ne. The concept of singularity of vision or values has been used to describe both and seeing values and ideas from multiple perspectives has been used to describe both.

    Is it possible that there is a continuum between multiple perspectives/flexibility and singularity of vision or values that can apply to both, but are nuanced a little differently? Both Ni and Fi in particular seem to have conflicting descriptions which causes a lot of confusion. For example, Ni is definitely described as singularity of vision and core concepts, etc. in many descriptions, but in others it is this extremely abstract, inexplicable, experiential, almost transcendental concept that is based on broad, flexible, and multiple perspectives.

    Based on observations there are INFJs with a unique, singular vision that impose their ideas and expectations into the concrete world. There are also INFJs that are broad, flexible, and almost transcendental in their relationship to reality. Also there are INFPs that have certain values that are expressed as quite fixed, and others that have that lightness and adaptability. It makes me wonder if there is a lot of misunderstanding and mistyping, or if there are significant subcategories of both INFJ and INFP that are not addressed in these theories?

    This strikes me in particular from what I think is an INFJ perspective (although I have also questioned my type as INFP). I've mentioned a few times about noticing some INFJs constructing continuums of ideas with mutually exclusive poles. This can also be expressed in dichotomies that are part of the description of INFJ. There are extremes of privacy and openness, of self control and indulgence, of distant perspective and intense, experiential empathy, etc. "If" this understanding of the type is correct, then could the INFJ also have the capacity for extremes of singularity of vision and multiplicity? Also of rigidity and adaptability?

    But then some of these contrasts can also exist in the INFP, I think? I am really curious what others think - if there are opposites of behaviors within each of the INFJ and INFP type which results in this preponderance of confusion for individuals reading descriptions and trying to identify with one category.

    Phew! More exhausting analysis.
    Sorry, I’m coming in late on this debate as usual, and I’ve only read the last couple pages.

    To me, the biggest difference between INFJs and INFPs is that Ni (the dom function of INFJ) is a perceiving function while Fi (the dom function of INFP) is a judging function.

    What does that mean? To put it simply:

    Ni-doms are always plotting the path to Nirvana, but they’re often not really clear on what Nirvana actually looks like. As a perceiving function, Ni is a churning, strategizing process, so it’s more about figuring out ways for getting from point A to point B. Ni-doms know that Nirvana is a good place to reach, but they’re more focused on finding just the right path(s) to get there and haven’t really thought as much about what the final destination actually looks like. As a result, Ni-doms tend to be the victims of the “law of unintended consequences.” They achieve their goal brilliantly, but it may bring down on their heads a host of consequences that they didn’t intend (and/or are contrary to their goal). As they say, "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry."

    Fi-doms, on the other hand, can clearly see Nirvana but are a little fuzzy about how to actually get there. As a judging function, Fi is a model-making process. Fi-doms come up with ideal models for living life; they may even implement those ideals in their own lives. But they often have trouble explaining their ideal models to others. If they try, they may come off as patronizing or simply nonsensical. They can explain how they live, but often in a straightjacket fashion: "If you want to *be* like me, then you have to *do* like me.” They put a lot of thought into creating a coherent model or ideal for living life, but they often haven’t put much thought into how to get from point A to point B, i.e., how to make the journey sensible to others around them.

    That’s kind of an “in-a-nutshell” description of the difference between the two functions; I’ll leave it at that for now. But that’s what I get when I compare the dominant functions of the two types. Of course, once you add in the auxiliary functions, then things get a little muddier. But for my own part, if I focus on the dominant function, I usually have a strong sense of the difference between INFPs and INFJs.

    To me, Ni and Fi are worlds apart. Ni-dom makes INFJs cousin of INTJs, with that same intensity of strategizing and planning/plotting; whereas Fi-dom makes INFPs cousins of ISFPs, with their individuality of self-expression.

  10. #150
    Junior Member ttanzkel's Avatar
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    When I read the thread title i imagined the two types against each other in a boxing ring. that's just an imagination tho

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