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Thread: INFP vs INFJ

  1. #121
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    This thread is exhausting.

    And now I'm conflicted again on whether I am an INFJ or INFP. Argh.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  2. #122
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fi dom concerns itself with considering all values as well. (This is something we are wired to discern and cannot ignore.) The difference lies in what happens next. An INFP leader will try to accomplish what we set out to do whilst supporting the existence of all those unique value systems. It's tricky stuff. We would use the outcome as motivator, not the vision itself. Although now an ENFP comes to my mind who's very vision-oriented, gets people on board with his 'religion'.

    *water is getting muddy, need to think more on how to clarify this*
    Anyway, not sure if what I wrote just made sense, but will try to expand more later.
    I would love that PeaceBaby.

    It is a muddy thing. If people could settle down and stop getting defensive about Fi and Fe, I think it could be much simpler and easier than what it is now. I have a difficult time putting thoughts into words, but to me, it seems like Fi and Fe are much more alike that what people believe. To me, it seems that they want the same thing.
    In healthy people...INFJ and INFP both want to validate people and respect values... and trying to support all the "unique value systems" is tricky. You are so right. Maybe...hmmm...Fe at some point will demand a compromise, which could be very off-putting to some who use Fi. And demanding a compromise, of course, would depend on which person or type is using Fe. Using myself as an example of INFJ, if a compromise cannot be reached, I would step down, step out--run far away and hide. I hate conflict. Perhaps people who use Fe as their dominant function would not. I don't know...I'm typing out loud. Or maybe it depends on the health of the individual using Fe.

    I would (almost) never see Fi as selfish or self-centered. Core values are what they are and it's admirable when people know what they believe and know who they are. Fi in an unhealthy person, even then, I would proceed with great caution if attempting to nudge at their Fi. And in children, who are still forming values, I tend to state other points of view and talk about them in a neutral type of way...as neither bad nor good or preferable...and let them think on those things. I am raising an ENFP (I think) boy.

    Change of subject.
    I've noticed posts of INFJs who have INFP children. Are there any INFPs (or ENFPs) around here who have INFJ children?

  3. #123
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ...
    Concerning the top bolded, I feel like Fi values work similarly - motivators, not specific visions. The value is a "an image which has no existence in reality", & things which don't fit with it are ignored, and things which do are embraced. So it's a gauge for when to act or not, what to pursue & support or not, rather than something to conform things to fit. Because Ne likes to consider multiple realities, there's never "one way to skin a cat", or one way to reach some end which fits a very abstract concept of value.

    INFJs seem to have much more specific visions, and so their concept of "harmony" is backed by a very subjective view of what that looks like. They may indeed use externally defined value-concepts, but as the means to a Ni end. This is why Van Der Hoop calls INJs tyrants within their own circles (unfair as well, but makes a point). They seem to want to use these external systems to keep reality inline with their very individual vision. This is perfectly fine when that vision is operating off of a deep insight into how things will pan out & what needs to be done to reach a better end (better being defined with "Fe", and any unselfishness or self-sacrifice is very necessary to balance Pi).
    I think what you say here makes a lot of sense. Noticing just how many INFJs and INFPs experience confusion about type, I've been noticing a number of conflicting descriptions for both the Ni-Fe dynamics and the Fi-Ne. The concept of singularity of vision or values has been used to describe both and seeing values and ideas from multiple perspectives has been used to describe both.

    Is it possible that there is a continuum between multiple perspectives/flexibility and singularity of vision or values that can apply to both, but are nuanced a little differently? Both Ni and Fi in particular seem to have conflicting descriptions which causes a lot of confusion. For example, Ni is definitely described as singularity of vision and core concepts, etc. in many descriptions, but in others it is this extremely abstract, inexplicable, experiential, almost transcendental concept that is based on broad, flexible, and multiple perspectives.

    Based on observations there are INFJs with a unique, singular vision that impose their ideas and expectations into the concrete world. There are also INFJs that are broad, flexible, and almost transcendental in their relationship to reality. Also there are INFPs that have certain values that are expressed as quite fixed, and others that have that lightness and adaptability. It makes me wonder if there is a lot of misunderstanding and mistyping, or if there are significant subcategories of both INFJ and INFP that are not addressed in these theories?

    This strikes me in particular from what I think is an INFJ perspective (although I have also questioned my type as INFP). I've mentioned a few times about noticing some INFJs constructing continuums of ideas with mutually exclusive poles. This can also be expressed in dichotomies that are part of the description of INFJ. There are extremes of privacy and openness, of self control and indulgence, of distant perspective and intense, experiential empathy, etc. "If" this understanding of the type is correct, then could the INFJ also have the capacity for extremes of singularity of vision and multiplicity? Also of rigidity and adaptability?

    But then some of these contrasts can also exist in the INFP, I think? I am really curious what others think - if there are opposites of behaviors within each of the INFJ and INFP type which results in this preponderance of confusion for individuals reading descriptions and trying to identify with one category.

    Phew! More exhausting analysis.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #124
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yes. I love being able to try out my ideals for the greater good on a captive audience. I've got over a billion people to play with now. I really wish I could figure out how to keep them from getting lost in the wilderness.
    There's always got to be something that they die from...
    You lose.

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  5. #125
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    There's always got to be something that they die from...
    All of my people should die of old age, in their beds, surrounded by their loving families! All other deaths are my personal failures.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #126
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    All of my people should die of old age, in their beds, surrounded by their loving families! All other deaths are my personal failures.
    A truly benevolent dictator...
    You lose.

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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    A truly benevolent dictator...
    I'm a firstborn and I've been a parent for almost half my life, so it's second nature by now. I'm working on learning to back off and shut up so I can be a good parent of adult children. No such luck for my imaginary citizens.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    My first instinct was to say someone that's at a high level of health for their Enneagram type, or someone who relates with many of the MBTI types, as an Enneagram nine would. Perhaps someone with no personality, even?

    I do know that identification with a single type is an ego-intensive process. I think many people identify strongly with their types to the point they can no longer view the system holistically, only as pieces of themselves and others. That's what a lot of typology seems to be about, portrayal or reception of an image. I prefer to think about the various systems in a more organic, all-encompassing manner - I seek to use them as tools for growth, rarely as tools for identification. I think this is why I like Enneagram so much, there are implications inherent to the system that entail patterns of growth, unlike the stagnant theories that circulate with Jung's work. It's probably why most of my depictions of types will be negative or focus on an unsavory aspect, because I think the good qualities people embody are well beyond basic functional pairings like Ni+Fe or what have you.


    A quick little aside, I wrote high end fashion/giving up on makeup as hyperbole against each other. I didn't really think of high end fashion as entailing expensive goods, I thought of it more as a timeless approach to the subject, while INFP's are more experimental and nuanced in their preferences.




    I think, of the four women I've been romantically entangled with, they've been ESTJ, INTP, ISFJ and INFP. The ESTJ was the absolute least feminine of all, stopped wearing make-up and started wearing comfortable, baggy clothes early in her teenage years, when most boys and girls were incredibly kept about their appearance.

    Based on this, and if I am an ISTJ, I don't see Victoria Beckham being ISTJ. I would consider neither you nor I as authoritative figures on typology, and given that I've seen three websites classify her under three different types I wouldn't really say the consensus on her has been established.

    Here's a random, interesting tidbit I found about her: "...where she was embarrassed by her family's wealth and often begged her father not to drop her off outside the school in their Rolls Royce." I don't know what that's indicative of, but meh, at least there was partial agreement I was onto something when I wrote that. I don't think it's completely invalidated.
    I understand type theory better than you do. Victoria Beckham is an ISTJ. She has Fi. She may have been embarrassed by her father's wealth by her tiny adolescent tertiary Fi, but Si has enslaved her to the sensory image of it. You have no idea what an INFJ even is. I can't believe you even described an INFJ that way. That's the least you need to know.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castameare View Post
    well the whole ESFJ or ENFJ as putting -down -typing -thing could also be a thing of some bad stereotypes and prejudices, when you just go to the 'Popular Culture and Type' section, just read what some people have for ideas and images regarding Ni,Ne,Si,Se,Fi,Fe etc. - types

    i just learned from this stuff to be rather sceptical when i kind of read, so i know this ESFP/INFP/INFJ/INTP ... guy and he does this and this, because just looking at the way how some people type... well ugh
    Yeah all ESFPs are stupid whores and all ISFPs are mindless push-overs. I KNOW. Some people still cant accept me as an SFP because I'm not braindead.

  10. #130
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Right since this has descended into pointless discussion with no resolution, as usual, I shall take charge by arrogantly decreeing that from now on Fi and Fe are to get along.

    If there are any complaints I shall start stamping on testies, if you don't have any then I shall surgically attach them then start stamping.

    I HAVE SPOKEN!
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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