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Thread: INFP vs INFJ

  1. #111
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    30 days. Mine no longer exists either but I checked and I think you can restore it so it probably survives in some database or buffer or something.
    Yeah, after having been reminded of it, I went back to the site and restored my nation. Not sure I'm going to stick to it though. It's not worth it unless they start adding some new issues. I've answered every single one multiple times already.
    You lose.

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  2. #112
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    A few more contrasts:

    Generally speaking INFPs seem to have a more consistent autonomy while INFJs haves times of involvement and then times to retreat from people. INFPs have a deeper sense or romanticism and nostalgia while INFJs have a pragmatism and can project systems into the future.

    Some similarities:
    Both types tend to care about ethics and morality,
    have a detached, but sensitive outlook with empathy and kindness
    have some need for autonomy
    have a tendency towards daydreaming
    capable of a fun quirkiness
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #113
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazelsees View Post
    I understand that Fi is concerned with individual values and such. But when an INFJ works with a team of people, the INFJ has to consider EVERYONE's personal values...not just one individual.
    Fi dom concerns itself with considering all values as well. (This is something we are wired to discern and cannot ignore.) The difference lies in what happens next. An INFP leader will try to accomplish what we set out to do whilst supporting the existence of all those unique value systems. It's tricky stuff. We would use the outcome as motivator, not the vision itself. Although now an ENFP comes to my mind who's very vision-oriented, gets people on board with his 'religion'.

    *water is getting muddy, need to think more on how to clarify this*
    Anyway, not sure if what I wrote just made sense, but will try to expand more later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hey DJ.

    Obviously all of these are generalizations, and based on my personal experiences. INFPs are more private than INFJs with their feelings, and sometimes this means they're quieter. To expand on this, it usually takes a long time to get close to an INFP, because they are often accustomed to their countersocial positions and opinions being invalidated by those around them in a society that would prefer they keep quiet. INFPs also, in my experience, are very sensitive about their feelings being ignored or invalidated, whereas an INFJ might take a more pragmatic approach about it for the sake of peace. I've noticed personally that the INFJs I've known are quite a bit more into pop culture than the INFPs I've known, but again, it's not a huge sample.

    In short, if someone come off as quiet and good natured, then suddenly drops an opinion-bomb that seems so countersocial that it seems at first glance to be downright offensive, then defends it passionately and emotionally, they're probably Fi dom.

    If someone is incredibly good at validating your feelings and places significant value on outwardly getting along with everyone, including people who aren't fit to lick his/her boots, they're probably Fe aux.
    It irks me that the 'right' thing is sometimes the 'counter-social' thing.

    And as far as feelings validation, I do think that again there's some wire-crossing going on between enneagram instincts and function attitudes. As an Fi-dom so-dom I know what it's all about to place value on getting along with everyone. I don't know what the solution is, because Fe is purported to be the 'be nice to everyone' function whilst Fi gets relegated to 'selfish self-centeredness' status.

    Ah well,
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It irks me that the 'right' thing is sometimes the 'counter-social' thing.
    A while ago, a boy at school kissed my daughter, who was seven. I'm going to set aside my frustration at him apparently doing this without her consent...

    They were "talked to" about it because it's not allowed at school. They advised me, apparently on the assumption that I would further scold her in some way. Instead, I spent the ride home explaining to her that she's not in trouble, and also that there's an important difference between something being wrong and something being against the rules. Kissing is not wrong, but kissing at school is against the rules. One thing I've observed about Fi doms is a generalized discomfort with this discrepancy, and it's perfectly justified. Why is something against the rules if it's not bad? It's because rules (which are supposed to be objective) and ethics (which are subjective) exist independently of each other, even if they should not.

    And as far as feelings validation, I do think that again there's some wire-crossing going on between enneagram instincts and function attitudes. As an Fi-dom so-dom I know what it's all about to place value on getting along with everyone. I don't know what the solution is, because Fe is purported to be the 'be nice to everyone' function whilst Fi gets relegated to 'selfish self-centeredness' status.
    This is an excellent point. It's hard to pin down exactly with text, but I'll give it a shot. It reminds me of this: @Kayness and I have talked about the apparent conflict between Fi and enneagram type four. I don't see a contradiction, but she does. If fours seek an identity, how can they use Fe, which seeks community? It's because the Fe four seeks an identity relative to the values of the community, while the Fi four seeks an identity that feels consistent with their values. The Fe approach may seem insincere to the Fi user, while the Fi approach seems selfish to the Fe user.

  5. #115
    Junior Member Castameare's Avatar
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    well I'm a 4w5 sp/sx and an Fe - user. Reading that many people actually see Fe - users as more expressive and open stands in direct contrast how i experience situations. I'm a very reserved person, radiating any emotional expressiveness or talking about personal feelings (even with close ones) would make me really really uneasy.

    I mean looking at people you may see what's there but it can also tell you a lot to see what's not there.

    INFJ Ne Fi Te Si as shadow functions
    INFP Fe Ni Se Ti as shadow functions

    (From Beebes Model of archetypes)

    OPPOSING Personality Complex

    Stubborn about things in the associated perspective. It's defending the dominant perspective in its opposite orientation.
    INFJ Ne Shadow:
    INxJ's Stubborn about responding to emerging information
    How they project it: NxJ's Probably think that multiple possibilities are absurd. The patterns point to one right conclusion.
    INFP Fe Shadow:
    IxFP's stubborn about how others affect them.
    How they project it: IxFP's Think that agreed upon ethics do not get to the real needs of people; affect them negatively, etc.
    CRITICAL PARENT

    opposing to your auxiliary, getting critical of others, actually knowing that you neglect this function in favor of your auxiliary, project it by being critical of others

    INFJ Fi Shadow:
    IxFJ's Can angrily hit others with personal or universal ethics.
    INFP Ni Shadow:
    INxP's Interpret everything in terms of a "big picture" in which the worst will happen
    BAD CHILD

    Deceiving, double-binding, trying to trap others

    INFJ Te shadow:
    xFJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by logical order, and make mistakes trying to implement it themselves
    IxFJ's see people organizing things logically as "bad children"
    real life INFJ may hit on others when failing in doing things in a given organized way with 'your organizing doesn't make any sense for me' therefore it's useless -> reference back to Ti, devaluing Te

    INFP Se Shadow:
    INxP's Might feel 'double-bound' by current reality (physical things or facts), and then it seems to become the perfect vehicle to try to turn the tables on others with, or to be silly with.
    INxP's People performing rigorous stunts are clowns; people telling "the facts" seem like "bullies"
    DEMON

    mostly rejected

    INFJ Si Shadow:INxJ's
    The past is highly irrelevent, and likely haunting
    INxJ's "When really stressed, they may waste time reviewing the impact of the past."(Berens) (Likely aimed at someone else in a conflict)
    when very very unhealthy (in grip of their inferior Se turn to demonic Si) i will use your past to detroy you, Si the subjective perecptions function, most useless for them to static, project it on others -> Si people too close minded , too rigid in their own sensing perception, can't change their subjective view on the situation

    INFP Ti Shadow:
    IxFP's Logical analysis totally depersonalizes life
    IxFP's Logical analysis is cold and evil, and they'll use it to demolish someone else's analysis

  6. #116
    Junior Member Castameare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Or even worse, you might project your inferior on to the wrong person; for example I see some IxTPs on this forum who have ExFJ paranoia. There are a grand total of four people who have suggested I might be an ENFJ, (actually one said ESFJ, because apparently he smokes crack) and two of them were IxTP men, who suggested it rather unpleasantly, as if it were a put-down rather than a simple statement. They see Fe where there is none.

    I've also had an INFP male call me an ISTJ in the mistyped members thread. Coincidence? I think not.
    well the whole ESFJ or ENFJ as putting -down -typing -thing could also be a thing of some bad stereotypes and prejudices, when you just go to the 'Popular Culture and Type' section, just read what some people have for ideas and images regarding Ni,Ne,Si,Se,Fi,Fe etc. - types

    i just learned from this stuff to be rather sceptical when i kind of read, so i know this ESFP/INFP/INFJ/INTP ... guy and he does this and this, because just looking at the way how some people type... well ugh

  7. #117
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    You play Nationstates? So do I. Haven't been on in months though. I'm sure my nation's ceased to exist by now.
    Yes. I love being able to try out my ideals for the greater good on a captive audience. I've got over a billion people to play with now. I really wish I could figure out how to keep them from getting lost in the wilderness.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #118
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    A few more contrasts:

    Generally speaking INFPs seem to have a more consistent autonomy while INFJs haves times of involvement and then times to retreat from people. INFPs have a deeper sense or romanticism and nostalgia while INFJs have a pragmatism and can project systems into the future.
    I think this is true, although INFPs are not totally resistant to "joining". We can get really committed to an external group of sorts which resonates with our ideals & values. The projecting systems into the future is a good distinction, as this is probably a blind spot for many INFPs (inferior Te logistics). This is not to say we don't have innovative ideas for the future, but it tends to be very Ne - possibilities based on potential we see emerging & then exploring that potential in real time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fi dom concerns itself with considering all values as well. (This is something we are wired to discern and cannot ignore.) The difference lies in what happens next. An INFP leader will try to accomplish what we set out to do whilst supporting the existence of all those unique value systems. It's tricky stuff. We would use the outcome as motivator, not the vision itself. Although now an ENFP comes to my mind who's very vision-oriented, gets people on board with his 'religion'.

    And as far as feelings validation, I do think that again there's some wire-crossing going on between enneagram instincts and function attitudes. As an Fi-dom so-dom I know what it's all about to place value on getting along with everyone. I don't know what the solution is, because Fe is purported to be the 'be nice to everyone' function whilst Fi gets relegated to 'selfish self-centeredness' status.

    Ah well,
    Yeah the bottom bolded bugs me. When you read Jung, he actually makes Fe sound more "selfish" in that notoriously manipulative manner they get accused of (unfairly as well; and also why I see Jung as Ti-dom, as he's the least unbiased with Fe, IMO). Yet, he describes Fi as very noble & sometimes acting heroically on refined values pertaining to human needs across contexts of culture/time - It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst. Well, that's how I read it :P. It's also why most INFP profiles note a great willingness to self-sacrifice for a "cause", one which supports a value-concept (or several) which is not about their own individual needs but fundamental human needs. We use Ne to kind of keep our eye out for vehicles which could possibly be used & steered by us to support these fundamental concepts of what is good for humanity.

    Concerning the top bolded, I feel like Fi values work similarly - motivators, not specific visions. The value is a "an image which has no existence in reality", & things which don't fit with it are ignored, and things which do are embraced. So it's a gauge for when to act or not, what to pursue & support or not, rather than something to conform things to fit. Because Ne likes to consider multiple realities, there's never "one way to skin a cat", or one way to reach some end which fits a very abstract concept of value.

    INFJs seem to have much more specific visions, and so their concept of "harmony" is backed by a very subjective view of what that looks like. They may indeed use externally defined value-concepts, but as the means to a Ni end. This is why Van Der Hoop calls INJs tyrants within their own circles (unfair as well, but makes a point). They seem to want to use these external systems to keep reality inline with their very individual vision. This is perfectly fine when that vision is operating off of a deep insight into how things will pan out & what needs to be done to reach a better end (better being defined with "Fe", and any unselfishness or self-sacrifice is very necessary to balance Pi).

    @Castameare 's post about Beebe's model is really helpful, IMO. Most of it suits me anyway, except the Si attitude in INFJs can be similar to one in NPs in general. For instance, a common Si attitude known as the "Fi-Si loop" in INFPs is feeling like the past has made a cage for us, that we cannot escape it (a haunting of sorts); yet not using personal experience to navigate the future but instead blowing it out of proportion as a sort of doom for the future (perhaps also a mix of how Ni is supposed to work for us). The past is sort of irrelevant as anything useful, but still a dark cloud hanging over you. I have a tendency to trust or believe in my theories over what my first-hand experience has told me. I find it difficult to approach a novel problem or new situation using my own concrete experience, which I deem too specific or narrow to reflect the multiple realities that could unfold. It's like "that was then, this is now, variables have changed, so that is irrelevant". The problem here is when it actually leads to you repeating the same mistakes because you stupidly think that enough has changed that the same action will lead to new results. It's kind of crappy Ne because it's using Si to not change yourself (poor Si In NFPs is "I will not change who I am in a factual/concrete way!!!" ie "I will not wear your uniform!"), but not using it to see how certain realities signal outcomes you can trust to unfold, therefore you must change yourself to produce the reality you want.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #119
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Here's INFJ vs INFP for ya:

    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    My question would be at what point does employing all eight functions for all types reach a point that makes the individual categories of type meaningless? I don't know the answer, but just asked the question.
    My first instinct was to say someone that's at a high level of health for their Enneagram type, or someone who relates with many of the MBTI types, as an Enneagram nine would. Perhaps someone with no personality, even?

    I do know that identification with a single type is an ego-intensive process. I think many people identify strongly with their types to the point they can no longer view the system holistically, only as pieces of themselves and others. That's what a lot of typology seems to be about, portrayal or reception of an image. I prefer to think about the various systems in a more organic, all-encompassing manner - I seek to use them as tools for growth, rarely as tools for identification. I think this is why I like Enneagram so much, there are implications inherent to the system that entail patterns of growth, unlike the stagnant theories that circulate with Jung's work. It's probably why most of my depictions of types will be negative or focus on an unsavory aspect, because I think the good qualities people embody are well beyond basic functional pairings like Ni+Fe or what have you.


    A quick little aside, I wrote high end fashion/giving up on makeup as hyperbole against each other. I didn't really think of high end fashion as entailing expensive goods, I thought of it more as a timeless approach to the subject, while INFP's are more experimental and nuanced in their preferences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think you're more right about INFP; your stereotype of INFJ sounds like you've been dating ISTJs.

    WHAT IS IT WITH YOU AND ISTJ. It's like your elusive true self, I swear to god you just described Victoria Beckham, and if she's an INFJ, I'll eat my hat.

    POSH SPICE



    INFJ: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG
    I think, of the four women I've been romantically entangled with, they've been ESTJ, INTP, ISFJ and INFP. The ESTJ was the absolute least feminine of all, stopped wearing make-up and started wearing comfortable, baggy clothes early in her teenage years, when most boys and girls were incredibly kept about their appearance.

    Based on this, and if I am an ISTJ, I don't see Victoria Beckham being ISTJ. I would consider neither you nor I as authoritative figures on typology, and given that I've seen three websites classify her under three different types I wouldn't really say the consensus on her has been established.

    Here's a random, interesting tidbit I found about her: "...where she was embarrassed by her family's wealth and often begged her father not to drop her off outside the school in their Rolls Royce." I don't know what that's indicative of, but meh, at least there was partial agreement I was onto something when I wrote that. I don't think it's completely invalidated.

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