[NF] INFP vs INFJ

[RDF]

well, both types are introverted, so we're both working from memory a lot.

when we try to get back into the moment, j types exert a great deal of effort in making good predictions about what will happen. p types invest harder in getting a feel for what has just happened. obviously we both have to do both processes, but we privilege one aspect over the other. we see one process way better than the other, reshaping the other through our own privileged orientation/habits.

i think standuble mentioned that he doesn't feel like he knows what is objectively best, so he presumably operates with another set of subjective ethics about how to properly act given that, say, you don't think it's right for anyone to just assume they objectively know best. you don't get to direct. you must be willing to respond to whatever arises.

j types, by contrast, are trying to make predictions in order to prioritize values, offering a much more active kind of troubleshooting. they look to consider, and expect others to also assume a high degree of consideration of what an action might mean after it has been transmitted through layers of interpretative filters.

p types can get stuck in naive realism, j types can get stuck in the vicious circularities of tautological thinking. and our shadow sides are flip-flopped. again, either type can fixate quite easily, and we're both already outdated all the damn time because we're so memory-driven.

the worst thing is that sometimes we construct such elaborate ways to emulate the other experience, rather than just feeling it out in its own terms. that takes so much damn practice to first notice our own habits, and then create space for something else to happen. staying with experience, with consequences, is not easy for me. it's a kind of submission to my own experience and to the fact that my experience is not entirely under my control. given that i have also not mastered focusing my experience and guiding my own attention in the most productive ways i can, this seems like letting go of almost all control. including the desire for emotional harmony, positivity, and good feeling, the embodied ends of value as we experience it, and the desire to change whatever is happening to reach a higher level of this essentialized goal. and letting go control is certainly letting go of all precedent, given that the precedents i have practiced, the highest learning i have constructed, exists primarily in an intentional system, a prediction system, a verification attempt of what is expected when i guess the meaning that will best affect the situation. we identify with what circulates between the characters rather than the characters themselves. when we identify with a person, we identify with what circulates within them rather than the substance of them as a separate thing, and with what it is like to be a separate thing. our experience is less central, our sensory separateness is less central.

both types benefit from slowing down their emotional interpretations and working on neutrally describing the sensations of emotion first, so they take ownership of their own experience and allow that to work its way into their awareness of the moment, what is happening both internally and externally.

Good post with a lot of good points. I think a lot of it is explained by the interaction between the Dominant function and the Auxiliary function.

Let me contrast how it works in INFPs and INFJs separately. INFPs first:

As you pointed out, the Dominant function of INFPs (Fi-Dom judging/model-making) operates internally, in isolation, away from the world. Meantime, the Auxiliary function of INFPs (Ne-Aux perceiving/churning) serves as the bridge running between the isolated, inner world of Fi-Dom and the outside real world.

Traffic on Ne-Aux bridge can run in two directions: Both inward from the real world to the isolated Fi-Dom, and also outward from the isolated Fi-Dom out to the real world. Most INFPs are fairly good at using the outward direction. That is, Fi-Dom is the INFP’s most powerful function, so Fi-Dom commandeers the Ne-Aux bridge and uses it to project Fi-Dom outward into the world. What does that mean? It means that Fi-Dom uses the Ne-Aux bridge to look for examples and paradigms in the outer world to supplement the pre-existing internal models of Fi-Dom and/or to act in the outside world according to internal Fi-Dom models (act whimsical, be empathetic, be quirky, etc.)

The above paragraph concerns the *outward” direction of the Ne-Aux bridge. By contrast, many INFPs don’t use the *inward* direction of the Ne-Aux bridge as much as they should. That is, they don’t take in raw information about the world around them. The INFP's internal Fi-Dom models are sometimes so powerful that the Fi-Dom function blocks out any info that might conflict with the models. The INFP acts oblivious or disdainful of the world around him and only uses the Ne-Aux bridge in the manner described in the previous paragraph, that is, *outwardly* to confirm his pre-existing prejudices. As a result, the isolated Fi-Dom doesn’t get any inflow of new info. Fi-Dom becomes a stagnant pool, cut off from new flows of fresh info.

The solution to the latter problem, of course, is to open up to new info from the surrounding world: To look around with an open mind and consider new ways of doing things. But that can feel threatening to the INFP; there’s the risk that the existing internal inventory of Fi-Dom models might be trashed by the new info, resulting in the need to build new Fi-Dom models in their place. That’s a lot of work.

But if the INFP wants to stay in tune with the world around him, he has to remain open to new ideas and test out his old Fi-Dom models against new ideas from the outside world and update the old Fi-Dom models as necessary. He has to work to open up the *inward* direction of the Ne-Aux perceiving/churning bridge and let the traffic come barreling in from the outside world at full speed. No more blocking out the world around him.

Here’s a website that describes this process in more detail: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INFP_per.html

INFJs work similarly, but with some additional twists.

The Dominant function of INFJs (Ni-Dom perceiving/churning) operates internally, in isolation, away from the world. Meantime, the Auxiliary function of INFJs (Fe-Aux judging/model-making) serves as a gate between the isolated, inner world of Ni-Dom and the outside real world.

Information can flow past the Fe-Aux function of INFJs in two directions: Both inward from the real world to the isolated Ni-Dom, and also outward from the isolated Ni-Dom out to the real world. Meantime, Fe-Aux works kind of like a guard at a gate, checking to see if incoming info is suitable for churning, and then packaging up outgoing info into appropriate Fe models for use in the outside world.

Most INFJs are fairly good at using the *outward* direction. That is, Ni-Dom is their most powerful function, so Ni-Dom commandeers the Fe-Aux gatekeeper and uses it to project Ni-Dom outward into the world. What does that mean? It means that Ni-Dom uses Fe-Aux to look for examples and paradigms in the outer world to supplement the pre-existing material that Ni-Dom is currently churning and/or to act in the outside world according to what’s being churned by Ni-Dom.

Unfortunately, many INFJs don’t use the *inward* direction of the Fe-Aux gatekeeper function as much as they should. That is, they don’t take in raw information about the world around them. The Ni-Dom churning is such a labor-intensive function that an unrestricted flow of new information would disrupt its operation. I have heard Ni-Dom compared to a matrix or spider’s web. Elements that are being churned are put into a pattern, examined, then rearranged into new patterns. To disturb one item is to disturb the matrix or web as a whole. So the process can seem rather delicate or fragile.

So the Fe-Aux gatekeeper is used to block out any info that might disrupt the ongoing churning process. The INFJ acts oblivious or disdainful of the world around him and only uses the Fe-Aux gatekeeper to check info for suitability, IOW, to confirm what is already being churned. As a result, the isolated Ni-Dom may be cut off from inflow of new info. Ni-Dom becomes a trash-compactor, churning the same old decaying material endlessly, cut off from new inflows of fresh info.

The solution to the latter problem, of course, is to open up to new info from the surrounding world: To open up the Fe-Aux gate and consider new ways of doing things. But that can feel threatening; there’s the risk that the existing churning mechanism will be overwhelmed by the new info, resulting in the need to work out new ways to process info. That’s a lot of work.

But if the INFJ wants to stay in tune with the world around him, he has to remain open to new ideas and test out his old Ni-Dom churning mechanisms against new ideas from the outside world and update the old Ni-Dom processing systems as necessary. He has to open up the *inward* direction of the Fe-Aux judging/model-making gatekeeper and let the info come crashing through at full speed. No more blocking out the world around him. (I think this is applicable to what you said in your post about letting go of control and connecting directly to the world around you.)

Here’s a website that describes this process in more detail: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INFJ_per.html

 

[RDF]

This is a clear description. All of your posts are fantastic in this thread, so it was hard to pick one, but just because I made a number of comments and questions about Ni, I'll have to say thanks for this clarification.

Great! For whatever reason, I kind of see you as a "quintessential INFJ." So I'm interested in your feedback on my posts.

 

[RDF]

Thanks for the concise explanation. I hadn't associated judging with model-making before, although of course it makes perfect sense.

Good! Thanks for the feedback.

Probably because empathy is what sets everything else into motion. First you have to care about the 200+ noble causes. That's essentially the point of most graduation speeches, right?

Your reponse kind of confirms my point.

In a nutshell, here’s our exchange:

INFP says: ”I register DFW’s speech as Ni-Dom and perceiver-ish. One of the hallmarks of Ni-dom thinking is the idea that certain things are self-evident. The Ni-dom function churns so deeply and powerfully that Ni-Doms figure it's redundant to spell out all the steps they used to work out their theories. So DFW presents his thoughts on empathy in a loosey-goosey fashion, just the high points, and he acts like everything else should be self-evident.

INFJ responds: Well, isn’t the rest of it self-evident?

INFP says: That’s a typical Ni-Dom response. You’re making my point for me!

Just for contrast, if you want an example of how an INFP might package up an emotional Fi-Dom “model” for presentation in the outside world, see my post on emotional bonds here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62655&page=2&p=2083650&viewfull=1#post2083650

Some say that an Fi-Dom model looks similar to Ti. But it’s not really about logic; it’s about parsing how emotion works and how people interact.

 

[cafe]

The obvious thing is crazy-making for me sometimes because not only is stuff that is obvious to me sometimes not obvious to other people, but often stuff that is blindingly obvious to most people is not obvious to me. Age has helped with it some because I've had time to trip over a lot of common obvious things that everybody knows. There are still a lot more times when I get to be stupidly oblivious than times I get to be profound. Having one's sensing function on backwards is inconvenient.

 

[Society]

Great! For whatever reason, I kind of see you as a "quintessential INFJ." So I'm interested in your feedback on my posts.

no - that has being discussed to death, and that sit is currently reserved to @Vasilisa with @the state i am in being a close second. i would say @fia is within the first 10 (in terms of proximity to the quintessential INFJ). while still a new runner, i have a guess that [MENTION=18346]LittleV[/MENTION] might very well give them all a run for their money though.

 

[Tiltyred]

DFW was INFJ? It was electrifying to me to read his books, because it seemed exactly to the tee the way my brain works. I loved that he was able to capture it on paper.

 

[brainheart]

Oh well, I went ahead and dug up that essay.

Here is a college commencement speech that has been making the rounds lately. It’s pretty long, but it’s brilliant writing. It was by David Foster Wallace. I don’t believe that his type is known, but the INFJs at PersC claim him as their own, and I would agree with them:

http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in-his-own-words

Thanks for posting this. I have a hard time grasping the differences between the types when people ramble on about cognitive functions but if I can see it in action I get it. I was on the same page with DFW (and I really like his writing, too) until he started going on and on about how 'you will all be working at these jobs and you will all have to drive to the grocery store, etc,' and then I paused and thought, "Why? Why must all of these people graduating live lives such as this? I highly doubt they will. Maybe some of them will have jobs where they work from home. Maybe some of them will live close to a little market that they can walk or bike to and maybe they will bring their own bags and they won't be using the plastic ones, and so on."

And so it is like this-

Fi- You can't tell me or anyone how they will live their lives. Everyone is different and has their own thing going on. Why must you include me in your little life lesson? And I already know that this lady who is yelling at her kid might have had a tough day. I mean, no shit. Doesn't everyone know this? How can other people not get that already? Why must you tell people that? How do people not live life with that sort of understanding?

Ne- Things could be like this, or this, or this. The possibilities are more than you could ever imagine.


It's been my experience that INFJs really like some external spirituality or feel like everyone needs this external sort of value system. I guess that's how extroverted judgment tends to be. I have a hard time getting this because my judgment, my values are so intrinsic to my being. I have had a hard time realizing/understanding that this isn't the case for everyone. It's taken me a long time to get why anyone would ever need or want religion or atheism or AA or whatever you have it, but it does seem to benefit some people, or at least they feel like they need it. And I guess that's why. I'm not saying this as a criticism of Fe (I know Fi can sound more harsh than is the intent at times), it's just a foreign cognitive function to me. I feel like I get Ni in a lot of ways, but I find Fe completely baffling.

 

[RDF]

Thanks for posting this. [...]

Thanks for your feedback, brainheart. And I pretty much agree with your impression of DFW’s speech.

By the way, I want to pick out one thing you said and nitpick on it a bit:

[...] I'm not saying this as a criticism of Fe (I know Fi can sound more harsh than is the intent at times), it's just a foreign cognitive function to me. I feel like I get Ni in a lot of ways, but I find Fe completely baffling.

In the quote, you mention comparing Fi to Fe. But this thread is about comparing INFPs to INFJs, which means we’re comparing Fi-Doms to Ni-Doms. It’s kind of like comparing apples to oranges.

If people really want to make Fi/Fe comparisons, then ideally one should do that in a thread comparing Fi-Doms to Fe-Doms: IOW there should be a thread comparing INFPs to ENFJs or comparing ISFPs to ESFJs.

Getting back to INFJs, *theoretically* one could try to ignore the Ni-Dom influence and isolate and study their Fe-Aux in order to make Fi/Fe comparisons. But *in practice* I think it’s very difficult to filter out and ignore that intense Ni-Dom polemical factor that’s so prominent in INFJs.

I know I’m being nitpickey here, but I wanted to take this opportunity to reiterate a point I made in an earlier post about INFJs being predominantly Ni. You said that you’re not really into the cognitive functions, but I think this is an example of where it really makes a difference.

 

[RDF]

no - that has being discussed to death, and that sit is currently reserved to @Vasilisa with @the state i am in being a close second. i would say @fia is within the first 10 (in terms of proximity to the quintessential INFJ). while still a new runner, i have a guess that [MENTION=18346]LittleV[/MENTION] might very well give them all a run for their money though.

Lol. You have a good point about Vasilisa. As for the others, I don't know them that well--I've been taking a lot of breaks recently.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

no - that has being discussed to death, and that sit is currently reserved to @Vasilisa with @the state i am in being a close second. i would say @fia is within the first 10 (in terms of proximity to the quintessential INFJ). while still a new runner, i have a guess that [MENTION=18346]LittleV[/MENTION] might very well give them all a run for their money though.

lol
Suddenly I feel like a horse in a race. I've considered other types and score high on both Fi and Ne, so it's okay if I'm not in the top 10. I'm not very quintessential "J".

 

[hazelsees]

lol
Suddenly I feel like a horse in a race. I've considered other types and score high on both Fi and Ne, so it's okay if I'm not in the top 10. I'm not very quintessential "J".

Being quintessential anything seems...boring. Just joking. But do you ever feel like you're not any type at all? When I read about the functions or even most type descriptions of INFJ, I'm know that I am one.
Then I read posts from other INFJs...and I'm not sure. OR especially read about the bad experiences people have with INFJs and...although I have my many flaws, the bad behaviors of Everyone's ex do not seem familiar at all.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Being quintessential anything seems...boring. Just joking. But do you ever feel like you're not any type at all? When I read about the functions or even most type descriptions of INFJ, I'm know that I am one.
Then I read posts from other INFJs...and I'm not sure. OR especially read about the bad experiences people have with INFJs and...although I have my many flaws, the bad behaviors of Everyone's ex do not seem familiar at all.

I've thought I was an INTJ with an overgrown Fi, an especially organized INFP, and have more recently been wondering if I'm actually an ENFP droopified by fibromyalgia and environment. I often feel a little stressed out when people size me up based on "INFJ" category.

 

[hazelsees]

No, that's not even it - it's like, Ni-Fe doesn't even see Fi truth, or assign it any value in the Ni model? And that feels really annoying, since we see INFJ individual truth and you don't see ours?

Eh, I don't know. It's not like we see your construct - we are just happy for you that you do what you do. INFJ way of being gets to exist in Fi land? But INFP's have to get vocal that our way of being is just as valid, has value before it's recognized? Something like that.

This is not cake. Just thinking out loud, brainstorming. Words are not necessarily perfectly chosen in this series of posts ...

Hi PeaceBaby. Will you give a tangible example of this--something you've experienced in real life? I love theories, but in working with people I usually need examples. Most people do not have the patience for the fi, ni, fe, ti, etc talk...and how one accepts the other, but the other doesn't accept the one. They stop listening and write it all off as poop. So, it's good for me to have examples to give to them.
And...as an INFJ, I generally do not try to make people fit in my model. I'm not even sure what my model is half the time. But...maybe I do and don't realize it, so if you could give some examples, I would so much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[brainheart]

In the quote, you mention comparing Fi to Fe. But this thread is about comparing INFPs to INFJs, which means we’re comparing Fi-Doms to Ni-Doms. It’s kind of like comparing apples to oranges.

If people really want to make Fi/Fe comparisons, then ideally one should do that in a thread comparing Fi-Doms to Fe-Doms: IOW there should be a thread comparing INFPs to ENFJs or comparing ISFPs to ESFJs.

Getting back to INFJs, *theoretically* one could try to ignore the Ni-Dom influence and isolate and study their Fe-Aux in order to make Fi/Fe comparisons. But *in practice* I think it’s very difficult to filter out and ignore that intense Ni-Dom polemical factor that’s so prominent in INFJs.

I know I’m being nitpickey here, but I wanted to take this opportunity to reiterate a point I made in an earlier post about INFJs being predominantly Ni. You said that you’re not really into the cognitive functions, but I think this is an example of where it really makes a difference.

Go ahead and be nit picky, I don't mind. I am fully aware that INFP vs INFJ is a difference between Fi-dom and Ni-dom. Perhaps I didn't explain this enough. I didn't think I isolated Fe. When I gave DFW's example of everyone driving in their cars to the grocery store, etc, it was meant to be an example of Ni+Fe. He has this vision in his head and it is a sort of unalterable vision, which is a very Ni thing, while his Fe kind of groups everyone in his example together: everyone in this room is going to live this life. While, as a Fi dom, I don't like being grouped together and being given a lesson in values, because my values are intrinsically there, thank you very much, and my Ne thinks of all of the other possible futures of the people in the room. (Again, my Fi probably sounds way more arrogant than I mean it to be, but there is something arrogant-sounding about Fi.)

I think it's natural to compare Fi and Fe and Ni and Ne because then you are comparing the things that actually can be compared between the types: how the types judge and how the types perceive. As I said, in a lot of ways I get Ni- probably because Fi coupled with Ne can create something which sort of resembles Ni, and because it is also an introverted function- but the Fe aspect of the INFJ always throws me for a loop. And that's where I really see the difference. Of course there are flaws in this method of comparison because no one would ever mistake me for a Ne-dom, just as most INFJs would never be mistaken for Fe-doms. I think when it's the auxiliary function it's definitely toned down, like someone has turned the volume down on the function, but it's still the way that both INFJs and INFPs extrovert, so it's something you often 'see' more than the introverted function. For this reason, INFPs can seem a little more silly and scattered at times- but nothing to Ne-dom levels, while INFJs can seem a little more warm and socially correct- although obviously not to Fe-dom levels, as well.

I have nothing against the cognitive functions, far from it. I enjoyed reading Jung's Personality Types and I find it to be a fascinating way of explaining aspects of a personality. I just have difficulty when things are written out in a dryly theoretical fashion. It's easier for me to read between the lines of literature or a speech or a life and grasp the cognitive function that way. Then I'm taking it in with my introverted judging function and figuring it out for myself.

 

[RDF]

Go ahead and be nit picky, I don't mind. I am fully aware that INFP vs INFJ is a difference between Fi-dom and Ni-dom. Perhaps I didn't explain this enough. I didn't think I isolated Fe. When I gave DFW's example of everyone driving in their cars to the grocery store, etc, it was meant to be an example of Ni+Fe. He has this vision in his head and it is a sort of unalterable vision, which is a very Ni thing, while his Fe kind of groups everyone in his example together: everyone in this room is going to live this life. While, as a Fi dom, I don't like being grouped together and being given a lesson in values, because my values are intrinsically there, thank you very much, and my Ne thinks of all of the other possible futures of the people in the room. (Again, my Fi probably sounds way more arrogant than I mean it to be, but there is something arrogant-sounding about Fi.)

I think it's natural to compare Fi and Fe and Ni and Ne because then you are comparing the things that actually can be compared between the types: how the types judge and how the types perceive. As I said, in a lot of ways I get Ni- probably because Fi coupled with Ne can create something which sort of resembles Ni, and because it is also an introverted function- but the Fe aspect of the INFJ always throws me for a loop. And that's where I really see the difference. Of course there are flaws in this method of comparison because no one would ever mistake me for a Ne-dom, just as most INFJs would never be mistaken for Fe-doms. I think when it's the auxiliary function it's definitely toned down, like someone has turned the volume down on the function, but it's still the way that both INFJs and INFPs extrovert, so it's something you often 'see' more than the introverted function. For this reason, INFPs can seem a little more silly and scattered at times- but nothing to Ne-dom levels, while INFJs can seem a little more warm and socially correct- although obviously not to Fe-dom levels, as well.

I have nothing against the cognitive functions, far from it. I enjoyed reading Jung's Personality Types and I find it to be a fascinating way of explaining aspects of a personality. I just have difficulty when things are written out in a dryly theoretical fashion. It's easier for me to read between the lines of literature or a speech or a life and grasp the cognitive function that way. Then I'm taking it in with my introverted judging function and figuring it out for myself.

Fair enough. You’re saying that you’re cognizant of the fact that INFJs extrovert their own particular brand of Fe, IOW, that Fe as exhibited in INFJs is a weaker, Auxiliary version of Fe and it’s one that’s heavily influenced by Ni.

So that’s fine. No problem.

The main reason I nitpick this point is that I pretty much have a favorable impression of Fe when it’s in the Dominant position. For example, a lot of self-help books are written by ENFJs, and in those self-help books the “tone” of Fe is one of helping people, of being supportive, of offering tools and tips for dealing with specific problems, and doing it in a manner that’s cooperative as opposed to pushy.

My experience of Fe-Doms in the flesh is similarly positive, for the most part. And ENFJs on the message board tend to be low-key and harmonious, so much so that Fi-users often complain about Fe on TypoC without even considering the positive example set by the board’s ENFJs.

So when someone says that Fe is “foreign” to them in a thread about INFPs vs. INFJs, I tend to want to remind them that Fe is very changeable depending on whether it’s in Dom or Aux position. Fi-users can experience Fe as a very hospitable and warm function when it’s in Dom position.

In other words, it’s all relative. So I like to put in those cautions and qualifications.

 

[LittleV]

no - that has being discussed to death, and that sit is currently reserved to @Vasilisa with @the state i am in being a close second. i would say @fia is within the first 10 (in terms of proximity to the quintessential INFJ). while still a new runner, i have a guess that [MENTION=18346]LittleV[/MENTION] might very well give them all a run for their money though.

Aww, that’s sweet of you – but I’m just stepping in and out (that’s what happens when you’re a grad student). There are plenty of unique, thoughtful members here, though.

 

[the state i am in]

INFP says: ”I register DFW’s speech as Ni-Dom and perceiver-ish. One of the hallmarks of Ni-dom thinking is the idea that certain things are self-evident. The Ni-dom function churns so deeply and powerfully that Ni-Doms figure it's redundant to spell out all the steps they used to work out their theories. So DFW presents his thoughts on empathy in a loosey-goosey fashion, just the high points, and he acts like everything else should be self-evident.

INFJ responds: Well, isn’t the rest of it self-evident?

INFP says: That’s a typical Ni-Dom response. You’re making my point for me!

Just for contrast, if you want an example of how an INFP might package up an emotional Fi-Dom “model” for presentation in the outside world, see my post on emotional bonds here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62655&page=2&p=2083650&viewfull=1#post2083650

Some say that an Fi-Dom model looks similar to Ti. But it’s not really about logic; it’s about parsing how emotion works and how people interact.

but what if dfw is actually an infp 9w1 sx/sp, like i have him typed? do not all types think their assumptions, their privileged forms of self-organization (the structure of their learning that they identify as themselves), are self-evident? especially when those provide the backdrop upon which any kind of conscious experience can arise at all?

my point is that the way in which something appears self-evident is more the question that needs to be answered, again and again and again, when playing the typology game.

so if we're going to play the function description game, it's not enough to simply work at one level of a behavior and claim that as evidence for the objective reality of a set of complexly distributed, underlying conditions spanning multiple levels of organization that we in turn cannot directly observe. that is the Ni critique. Ni uses a particular method of mapping out conditions (the hierarchical backdrops that disclose what is possible) that others might not see. it sees the underlying geometry of abstractions (their bisections and parallel relationships) that exist in the mind of the systems around it, as it can interpret their functionality (Fe) as a kind of positive or negative intent when compared to other systems through analogy, filtered through its own set of frameworks that have emerged through time. Fi is more of an embodied, consequential, experiential function that utilizes its own felt resonances to remember movements of things in the world as they happened in actual time and space (to real extent). to feel, through the lens of one's own embodied, empathetic self-placement, the method acting out of all the characters, the justice of the outcome of games that have occurred, and to decide the value, whether it is on behalf of the good or whether it is part of the plague (<--blatant camus plug).

 

[Society]

 

[mintleaf]

but what if dfw is actually an infp 9w1 sx/sp, like i have him typed? do not all types think their assumptions, their privileged forms of self-organization (the structure of their learning that they identify as themselves), are self-evident? especially when those provide the backdrop upon which any kind of conscious experience can arise at all?

my point is that the way in which something appears self-evident is more the question that needs to be answered, again and again and again, when playing the typology game.

so if we're going to play the function description game, it's not enough to simply work at one level of a behavior and claim that as evidence for the objective reality of a set of complexly distributed, underlying conditions spanning multiple levels of organization that we in turn cannot directly observe. that is the Ni critique. Ni uses a particular method of mapping out conditions (the hierarchical backdrops that disclose what is possible) that others might not see. it sees the underlying geometry of abstractions (their bisections and parallel relationships) that exist in the mind of the systems around it, as it can interpret their functionality (Fe) as a kind of positive or negative intent when compared to other systems through analogy, filtered through its own set of frameworks that have emerged through time. Fi is more of an embodied, consequential, experiential function that utilizes its own felt resonances to remember movements of things in the world as they happened in actual time and space (to real extent). to feel, through the lens of one's own embodied, empathetic self-placement, the method acting out of all the characters, the justice of the outcome of games that have occurred, and to decide the value, whether it is on behalf of the good or whether it is part of the plague (<--blatant camus plug).

this is as dense as it is interesting and I hope you don't mind if I ask for clarification.

- why do you think DFW is an INFP?
- could you expand on this?
- what do you mean by Fi being "consequential"?
- is it wrong to assume that INFPs are generally more emotional than INFJs?

 

[the state i am in]

this is as dense as it is interesting and I hope you don't mind if I ask for clarification.

- why do you think DFW is an INFP?
- could you expand on this?
- what do you mean by Fi being "consequential"?
- is it wrong to assume that INFPs are generally more emotional than INFJs?

you ask a good question that i cannot answer in a straightforward way.

i think i look at bits and pieces, and work backwards rather than forwards to cross cancel until i'm left with a few possibilities. admittedly, it's extremely circular.

for me, my own personal anecdotes and pieces are this. he (the pictures, interviews, excerpts, and speech) reminds me of a couple of infp 9w1 sx/sp males i know, one in personal life who loved dfw, and the other bill hicks. also, one of my best friends, a 9w1 so/sp has dedicated much of his academic work to dfw, and feels a kinship that i think i see in so much deeper than a text to a text and much deeper than i can describe here (involving aspects of existentialism, the need for choice, the process of giving good reasons, the desire to find balance between e9 and e1 and reconcile responsibility with acceptance). the critical orientation, the standards, the alienation, the depression, the extremely strong e1 bent, the empathy (read some of the stories in oblivion imagining other traumatic experiences), and the sense of suffering that comes from the interplay between the two, when acceptance is unforthcoming, this brings a strong 9w1 feel to me. i also feel the pull to e3.

i also don't see any marking of j. his eye movements are incredibly visual/reconstructive. he feels more experiential than representational to me. nfjs often, especially when voicing things for themselves rather than effortfully voicing for others, tend to rely on big concepts to convey what they mean. everything feels like a hyperlink, which makes the text more like a labyrinth than a direct account of an experience. we're more heavily mediated by meanings rather than stories. dfw uses stories to illustrate points, is admittedly and pointedly didactic in doing so, and tries to find common ground in the uniqueness of our own experiences that shape our opportunity to make our own interpretations in the most "well-adjusted" way possible. he's avoidant of concepts like compassion because they can lose the personal, lived relevance of real practices. he's very careful to present his perspective in a way that is not moralizing, is not an ideal or a "virtue" but instead a way of being more aware of what is happening outside of you and where you are at in the greater context of the world as it is happening around you, as it is, and to take responsibility to do the work to make your own interpretation. the p imperative that truth comes from testing things for yourself.

in other words, experience is first, interpretation is secondary.

infjs clarify the symbols that exist, they recenter them, they find larger patterns connecting them and unifying them. we make maps that help people navigate the mazes they find themselves in, that are templates for organizing oneself, for integrating oneself, but are never the actual ends but only guides that can never replace life as it is actually lived. when inj types use stories to illustrate, in general i find them a bit more contrived and less natural. they're more connected to everyday realities for that exact inj than they are able to easily feel out a number of similar, analogous processes. we have to conceptualize to analogize.

finally, to respond to your last two questions, by consequential i just mean p types see changes more. they're aware of what happens more broadly afterwards rather than looking for specific expectations to be confirmed, or trying to provide a lens, a new set of expectations, to guide them. it's so much more relativistic. and i would say that "more emotional" is a tough call. e4s are emotionally complex, extremely self-conscious, and have a lot of work as far as managing their mood (which is usually really up and down). e9s have a much more deeply, bodily presence, connectedness to their own feelings, to their own sensual experiences. infjs and infps are primarily these two types, so they're very similar in many crucial ways. they have different ways of going about very similar projects, and infps attach to their values a bit more firmly than infjs (assuming we do not simply equate values to ego-driven emotional patterns), vs infjs who attach a bit more firmly to their meanings (interpretations). either way, both types practice noticing the difference between the feelings directly and the interpretations in order to work on their beliefs, or they crush themselves and become quite immovable.