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Thread: Desiderata

  1. #31
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

    "Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

    Is that what you're saying?
    Bingo!!!
    I don't think this is a T:F thing, either.

    I often feel like this.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I don't think this is a T:F thing, either.

    "Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."
    I often feel like this.
    Hmm maybe the F feels it worse as they place more importance in their values on those underground intuitive feelings? That 'gut feeling' is going to get more attention or have more imporatanc eplaced upon by the F than a T.

    but yeah I don't think it's something that only one or the other does, we all have F and T

    Anyway how have you been Rivercrow?

  3. #33
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    but yeah I don't think it's something that only one or the other does, we all have F and T
    Maybe just one of those human-nature things. I keep trying to stamp that out in me, but it keeps coming back.

    Maybe I need RoundUp to eradicate the creeping weed of humanness.
    Anyway how have you been Rivercrow?
    I'm okay. Nice to see you around.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Maybe just one of those human-nature things. I keep trying to stamp that out in me, but it keeps coming back.

    Maybe I need RoundUp to eradicate the creeping weed of humanness.

    I'm okay. Nice to see you around.
    Will round up work on humanness??? lol

    Thanks! it's good to be around....

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Honestly?

    I think it's advice a fair number of unnamed Thinking types should take to heart.
    Oh boy, looks like this is a back-door slap on the hand. Sorry, if I offended anyone for being my usual opinionated, direct self. I know that you would love me if you knew me personally.

  6. #36
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    Oh boy, looks like this is a back-door slap on the hand. Sorry, if I offended anyone for being my usual opinionated, direct self. I know that you would love me if you knew me personally.
    Heh--don't forget, I'm INTP as well--one of those damned Thinking types....
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Max Ehrmann

    Desiderata

    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence....
    I never much liked "Desiderata."

    For example, I tend to have a problem with the construction of Ehrmann's essay (or poem or whatever). It starts with a long rules-based section (paragraphs 1-5), and finishes with a shorter abstract section (paragraphs 6-8). When I read the essay, I usually end up skimming over the rules in the first section and not paying much attention to them because they just seem to be a jumble of commandments about how to handle random situations in life. After that, the abstract section (starting with "You are a child of the universe") is of more interest, but it doesn't seem all that connected to the first part.

    If I were to rewrite the essay, I would put the abstract section first and the rules-based section last. That way the value system is explained right at the start and sets the context; and then the rules show how the value system can be implemented in real life. That's a more natural progression for me as an NF (or as an INFP, anyway).

    When I put the abstract section first to provide context for the rules, I then pay greater attention to the rules-based section and notice more of a progression: starting with how to interact with others; then finding one's station in life; career; love; and finally old age and dealing with disillusionment. And the rules, in turn, validate the abstract section by showing that the abstract system has real-life applications.

    IOW, for me the essay reads better as follows:

    You are a child of the universe,
    no less than the trees and the stars;
    you have a right to be here.
    And whether or not it is clear to you,
    no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

    Therefore be at peace with God,
    whatever you conceive Him to be,
    and whatever your labors and aspirations,
    in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
    it is still a beautiful world.
    Be cheerful.
    Strive to be happy.

    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible without surrender
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even the dull and the ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
    they are vexations to the spirit.
    If you compare yourself with others,
    you may become vain and bitter;
    for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
    Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

    Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
    it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
    Exercise caution in your business affairs;
    for the world is full of trickery.
    But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
    many persons strive for high ideals;
    and everywhere life is full of heroism.

    Be yourself.
    Especially, do not feign affection.
    Neither be cynical about love;
    for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
    it is as perennial as the grass.

    Take kindly the counsel of the years,
    gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
    Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
    But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
    Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
    Beyond a wholesome discipline,
    be gentle with yourself.



    By putting the abstract section first, I think the message becomes clearer (at least for me): You have a place here in the world as much as anyone; furthermore, you can also enjoy friendship, virtue in business, love, and contentment in old age, as long as you have the discernment to see those things around you and the discipline to practice them yourself.

    Even set up this way, there still isn't a whole lot of substance to the essay. It doesn't offer advice on the really useful stuff, like how to pick up chicks or what it means when your boss says, "Come to my office, we need to talk."

    In fact, the aim of the essay appears to be to address cynics and reassure them that happiness is still attainable even despite all the "sham, drudgery, and broken dreams." In the Old Testament, the book of Ecclesiastes says, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." Ehrmann responds, "Not everything is vanity. If you pick around and sift through the rubble and trickery and disenchantment, you can still find a little heroism and idealism and love from time to time."

    It's a worthy message. But still, I'm not sure that it was written by an NF or intended for an audience of NFs. Given the structure of the original essay (starting with a long list of rules and commandments) and the intended audience (world-weary cynics), it doesn't feel very NF to me.

    Just my two cents, of course.

    FL
    Last edited by RDF; 07-09-2007 at 03:54 PM.

  8. #38
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That sounds like a plan... Better yet, if we feel VERY bored, perhaps we can write it for each of the four Keirsey archetypes.

    Are you going to your renaissance group today? Have fun!
    Yikes! I didn't get back to this. I did go to my ren group and had so much fun chatting that I didn't have time to even look the poem thingy over. Then the grocery store and the first episode of the third (podio-)book of the 7th Son series and finishing the other boot. Busy Sunday.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Maybe it needs a reggae beat....
    It needs elevator music with a beat and Captain Kirk reciting it like that one commercial. That's what it reminds me of.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Maybe we should rewrite it?



    Sounds like a game to me....
    Just off the top of my head:

    Mirroring the original, an NF version might take the different stages or facets of man (friendship, business, love, old age) and show how kindness, respect, conviviality, and compassion cost us little and at the same time ease our way in life and draw like-minded people to us.

    The abstract section might point out that we all have equal rights on this earth and needn't apologize or feel bad for having the same needs, desires, and failings as everyone else. But when it's freely given, kindness takes us beyond an attitude of mere rivalry or coexistence with the people around us and provides the initial openings for reciprocation, friendship, and more.

    FL

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