[NF] Desiderata

[heart]

Yeah, that might help.

 

[Xander]

As it was something I found on the front of a card that my ISFJ mother sent me, finding it only after she had died, I can say that I've spent one hell of a lot of time thinking it over. It is good advice for most people, NFs included (certainly kills a lot of ghouls and ghosts of paranoia if it's taken to heart).

As for a call to duty, perhaps you should READ the thing instead of intuiting what it may say between the first and last letters. It's not about duty except in terms of duty to yourself. It quite clearly shows the reader that they are worth something, that they do have a place in existence and aren't just rattling around. It does NOT however define the reader's place in existence, it just shows that you deserve one just as much as anybody else no matter how you define it or yourself.

I must say I'm kinda disappointed in the interpretations so far. Did anyone actually read it or just skim over it?

 

[rivercrow]

I must say I'm kinda disappointed in the interpretations so far. Did anyone actually read it or just skim over it?

I've read it. I had it memorized when I was a kid.


The author of the OP suggested NFs had some particular association with it.


That "NF quality" is the thing we've been discussing.




So far, I don't see any interpretations, just comments that it's not particularly NF (which you also gathered ) and that it could be rewritten in a more idealistic and inspiring manner.

 

[Dom]

NFs, you dont have strong opinions concerning ideas this poem invoked in regards to how a life is best lived?

Sorry are you telling me I don't or asking me for my opinon???

Max Ehrmann


Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.


Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.


You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

Wisdom comes in many forms, and some more cliche than others, this poem contains wisdom that most of us have heard at times but do not always hold close to our hreats (NFs) and our minds (NTs)

Of course I disagree with it in part, being an occasionaly loud and agressive person.. lol

I think this kind of thing assists NT's better than NFs because if you can keep it in your mind it may assist an NT to modify their behaviour, by helping alter the their principals. The NF however, will base his decision on the values he feels are most important and though he will read this and understand it to be wisdom, it is a goal to move towrd as he matures through the emotional rollercoaster of this world, modifying his values, softening them, to a point where he walks as himself at peace with his values and those around him. The NT typically makes decisions based upon his principals; which are the result of his thoughts and reasoning, the NFs values are the result of his reasonings combined with the experience of emotional reaction he feels.

In other words something that is cerebal is going to affect the more cerebal type.

This was written by an introvert....

 

[Xander]

I've read it. I had it memorized when I was a kid.


The author of the OP suggested NFs had some particular association with it.


That "NF quality" is the thing we've been discussing.




So far, I don't see any interpretations, just comments that it's not particularly NF (which you also gathered ) and that it could be rewritten in a more idealistic and inspiring manner.

Interpretation would cover inspiration (though that's a personal thing and is , in your case especially, probably dulled due to knowing it for so long [you know being old as you are ), and also what type wrote it.

As far as I intuit from it, it could be an SF who wrote it (I'm coloured by the factor of my mother having sent it to me) writing what they intuited as a pattern to things (like recognising we all have a right to a place in the world) or it could have been an NF merely pointing out what they consider to be intuitively obvious ( ). So I think that the type is more complex to extrapolate than many have thought about.

 

[Xander]

Wisdom comes in many forms, and some more cliche than others, this poem contains wisdom that most of us have heard at times but do not always hold close to our hreats (NFs) and our minds (NTs)

Of course I disagree with it in part, being an occasionaly loud and agressive person.. lol

? Sometimes?
*makes note to bring tape recorder to next conversation for purposes of proof*

I think this kind of thing assists NT's better than NFs because if you can keep it in your mind it may assist an NT to modify their behaviour, by helping alter the their principals. The NF however, will base his decision on the values he feels are most important and though he will read this and understand it to be wisdom, it is a goal to move towrd as he matures through the emotional rollercoaster of this world, modifying his values, softening them, to a point where he walks as himself at peace with his values and those around him. The NT typically makes decisions based upon his principals; which are the result of his thoughts and reasoning, the NFs values are the result of his reasonings combined with the experience of emotional reaction he feels.

In other words something that is cerebal is going to affect the more cerebal type.

This was written by an introvert....

I think I agree.

Personally I found it helped my recessive F realise that it should not feel lonely or out of place. It gave me the inspiration to claim that which others claim out of confidence or bravado, so yeah I guess it is introverted now I think about it.

However I also think it is of great use to the Fs of the world, NF or SF, as it should belay some of that haunting about if they are welcome in the world or not. Perhaps it could bolster the confidence in acting as they feel is right without trying to check and recheck it a dozen times to figure out if they are allowed to be so bold.

Mind you I'm not that much of an F so I'll take your word for it.

 

[Dom]

Xander,

The problem for the NF specificlly is that when they feel out of place in the world it's not because we don't know that they are welcome.

This is something I struggle to explain in a way NTs understand. Sometimes it does not matter what I know (I've moved into talking about me as I do not wish to speak for all NFs but I think they feel this too) I can still feel rejected and like I don't belong.

I know I'm not bad looking, but I feel it and so when I get whisked off by my NF to gaga land, the fact I know I'm not makes no odds to the depression and rejection I'm feeling.

Recently I was feeling like I was a shit bag, a horrid person of little or no worth to his partners or friends. I thought this because I've hurt people I care about, however I KNOW it isn't really true, but that didn't stop me convincing myself that it was.

That is what I mean in regards to the peom and NFs, we can know we belong in the world, and while that may dispell an NT's ghosts, it will only slightly affect the NF's.

I'm so not sure any of that makes anysense. lol

 

[rivercrow]

The problem for the NF specificlly is that when they feel out of place in the world it's not because we don't know that they are welcome.
...

That is what I mean in regards to the peom and NFs, we can know we belong in the world, and while that may dispell an NT's ghosts, it will only slightly affect the NF's.

I'm so not sure any of that makes anysense. lol

I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

"Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

Is that what you're saying?

 

[Xander]

I get it now. It's not T nor F dear boy, it's just I didn't see it before.

It's like knowing your type, I know that I'm an INTP and I know that I will do certain things like shut people out when I want a little alone time. I know what I do and I know why, changing it however... well that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

Realisation does not equal actualisation. Well said.

 

[Dom]

I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

"Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

Is that what you're saying?

Bingo!!!

I get it now. It's not T nor F dear boy, it's just I didn't see it before.

It's like knowing your type, I know that I'm an INTP and I know that I will do certain things like shut people out when I want a little alone time. I know what I do and I know why, changing it however... well that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

Realisation does not equal actualisation. Well said.

Bingo!!!

Oh I am doing well today....

 

[rivercrow]

I think this makes sense. Let me try to play it back at you.

"Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

Is that what you're saying?

Bingo!!!

I don't think this is a T:F thing, either.

I often feel like this.

 

[Dom]

I don't think this is a T:F thing, either.

"Although the *facts* suggest acceptance when taken at face value, you sense an underlying current suggesting rejection. Regardless of what others say to the contrary, your gut feeling remains."

I often feel like this.

Hmm maybe the F feels it worse as they place more importance in their values on those underground intuitive feelings? That 'gut feeling' is going to get more attention or have more imporatanc eplaced upon by the F than a T.

but yeah I don't think it's something that only one or the other does, we all have F and T

Anyway how have you been Rivercrow?

 

[rivercrow]

but yeah I don't think it's something that only one or the other does, we all have F and T

Maybe just one of those human-nature things. I keep trying to stamp that out in me, but it keeps coming back.

Maybe I need RoundUp to eradicate the creeping weed of humanness.

Anyway how have you been Rivercrow?

I'm okay. Nice to see you around.

 

[Dom]

Maybe just one of those human-nature things. I keep trying to stamp that out in me, but it keeps coming back.

Maybe I need RoundUp to eradicate the creeping weed of humanness.

I'm okay. Nice to see you around.

Will round up work on humanness??? lol

Thanks! it's good to be around....

 

[Zhash]

Honestly?

I think it's advice a fair number of unnamed Thinking types should take to heart.

Oh boy, looks like this is a back-door slap on the hand. Sorry, if I offended anyone for being my usual opinionated, direct self. I know that you would love me if you knew me personally.

 

[rivercrow]

Oh boy, looks like this is a back-door slap on the hand. Sorry, if I offended anyone for being my usual opinionated, direct self. I know that you would love me if you knew me personally.

Heh--don't forget, I'm INTP as well--one of those damned Thinking types....

 

[RDF]

Max Ehrmann

Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence....

I never much liked "Desiderata."

For example, I tend to have a problem with the construction of Ehrmann's essay (or poem or whatever). It starts with a long rules-based section (paragraphs 1-5), and finishes with a shorter abstract section (paragraphs 6-8). When I read the essay, I usually end up skimming over the rules in the first section and not paying much attention to them because they just seem to be a jumble of commandments about how to handle random situations in life. After that, the abstract section (starting with "You are a child of the universe") is of more interest, but it doesn't seem all that connected to the first part.

If I were to rewrite the essay, I would put the abstract section first and the rules-based section last. That way the value system is explained right at the start and sets the context; and then the rules show how the value system can be implemented in real life. That's a more natural progression for me as an NF (or as an INFP, anyway).

When I put the abstract section first to provide context for the rules, I then pay greater attention to the rules-based section and notice more of a progression: starting with how to interact with others; then finding one's station in life; career; love; and finally old age and dealing with disillusionment. And the rules, in turn, validate the abstract section by showing that the abstract system has real-life applications.

IOW, for me the essay reads better as follows:

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.


By putting the abstract section first, I think the message becomes clearer (at least for me): You have a place here in the world as much as anyone; furthermore, you can also enjoy friendship, virtue in business, love, and contentment in old age, as long as you have the discernment to see those things around you and the discipline to practice them yourself.

Even set up this way, there still isn't a whole lot of substance to the essay. It doesn't offer advice on the really useful stuff, like how to pick up chicks or what it means when your boss says, "Come to my office, we need to talk."

In fact, the aim of the essay appears to be to address cynics and reassure them that happiness is still attainable even despite all the "sham, drudgery, and broken dreams." In the Old Testament, the book of Ecclesiastes says, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." Ehrmann responds, "Not everything is vanity. If you pick around and sift through the rubble and trickery and disenchantment, you can still find a little heroism and idealism and love from time to time."

It's a worthy message. But still, I'm not sure that it was written by an NF or intended for an audience of NFs. Given the structure of the original essay (starting with a long list of rules and commandments) and the intended audience (world-weary cynics), it doesn't feel very NF to me.

Just my two cents, of course.

FL

 

[cafe]

That sounds like a plan... Better yet, if we feel VERY bored, perhaps we can write it for each of the four Keirsey archetypes.

Are you going to your renaissance group today? Have fun!

Yikes! I didn't get back to this. I did go to my ren group and had so much fun chatting that I didn't have time to even look the poem thingy over. Then the grocery store and the first episode of the third (podio-)book of the 7th Son series and finishing the other boot. Busy Sunday.

 

[cafe]

Maybe it needs a reggae beat....

It needs elevator music with a beat and Captain Kirk reciting it like that one commercial. That's what it reminds me of.

 

[RDF]

Maybe we should rewrite it?



Sounds like a game to me....

Just off the top of my head:

Mirroring the original, an NF version might take the different stages or facets of man (friendship, business, love, old age) and show how kindness, respect, conviviality, and compassion cost us little and at the same time ease our way in life and draw like-minded people to us.

The abstract section might point out that we all have equal rights on this earth and needn't apologize or feel bad for having the same needs, desires, and failings as everyone else. But when it's freely given, kindness takes us beyond an attitude of mere rivalry or coexistence with the people around us and provides the initial openings for reciprocation, friendship, and more.

FL