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  1. #51
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Flatlander,

    I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to this thread, for lending your ideas and input. Thank you.

    So about my friend, I interact with her often and I am sure she is not an S and she is deifinitely not an Fe. I do see a lot of Ti and Ne at work in her daily life. At least, I think they are Ti and Ne.

    Of course it is possible that she could be mistyped.

    For all I know, you could be mistyped. I could be mistyped.

    So, whatever her type, she is socially awkward and in a group she puts people ill at ease. I think she wants to be relatable but doesn’t have a clue how to be. She is clumsy and awkward [physically]. After an initial meeting, people are often put off by her.


    Why did I complain about it?

    To lure you here, of course, and entangle you in this discussion. Apparently, it worked, because you're here.

    Actually, I didn’t mean to complain but if it came across that way, then to be blunt, it takes longer. I interact with so many people, on any given day, that I sometimes get lazy with the ones who take the long scenic route to get to their destination.

    And no, cutting and pasting to restructure isn't the same as reframing, exactly, but it does help me to reframe it in my mind as I go. It’s like a short cut.

    I don't continue debate or conversation when there's no significant understanding to be gained from it, and I tend to see right through to whether I will find this or not.
    Significant understanding...I hope to gain some of that. Perhaps we will still be on it when you return. If you don't mind, I would like to ask you by what means you arrived at your own type.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #52
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Because People Are Stupid.

    (Is that concise enough?)
    It's concise and it's probably true, but it doesn't make me not want to understand the reasoning that went into a particular action.

    Even if it was simply acting on impulse, I may not ever identify with it and I may still think it's stupid, but for some reason, I'm compelled to try to understand. I suspect because I want things to be predictable and if I can understand what motivates even stupid people to do things, I will see some kind of pattern or at least be able to make one up.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #53
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    @Ene so is your friend an INTP or an INFP? If she prefers Ti and Ne she can't be an INFP since INFPs prefer Fi and Ne. Also, claiming we all could be mistyped is a weak logical argument because it assumes the logical probability that we're mistyped is true for everyone which it is not. If we have a system that explains what a type is, we can measure our understanding of the theory against this system and receive results of various accuracy.

    As for your description of your friend's personality, it doesn't reveal any of her cognitive functions. What functions would specifically be associated with social awkwardness anyway? Any type can be socially awkward for various reasons.

    As for the purpose of this thread, so your point was to "lure us here" to discuss about this, but what is it that we are discussing, exactly? What is the point of this discussion? Is it to discuss the type of your friend, why some individuals have issues making logical points when expressing themselves or something else such as discussion itself?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #54
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Lea,

    First, my friend tests as an INFP. Flatlander asked if there was a possiblity she could be something else. Of course, there's a possiblity. There's always a possibility. Secondly, I feel that I was quite clear about what I was wanting to discuss, functions behind communication styles.

    Also, claiming we all could be mistyped
    well, some of us could be. People often don't look at themselves honestly and therefore they don't always answer assessment questions honestly. Likely, we are not all mistyped, but some of us...probably are. Logical or not, it's a probability.

    is a weak logical argument because it assumes the logical probability that we're mistyped is true for everyone which it is not.
    Not for everyone, but for some.

    If we have a system that explains what a type is, we can measure our understanding of the theory against this system and receive results of various accuracy.
    True, provided we have a solid understanding, which I have never claimed to have. I came here to help me learn. I'm no expert on cognitive functions. And as you say, various accuracy, meaning that sometimes we will not be completely accurate. In order for results to always be accurate the tests would have to be infalible and the people taking the tests would have to be completely objective and many times human beings are not completely objective.

    As for your description of your friend's personality, it doesn't reveal any of her cognitive functions.
    No, it doesn't. It just reveals manisfestations of them.


    As for the purpose of this thread, so your point was to "lure us here" to discuss about this
    ,

    Lea, that was a statement made in a good-natured attempt to joke around. I'm sorry it didn't come across that way. I am a very easy-going person. I joke around--alot. I see humor in most things and even when people have proverbial steam coming out their ears [NOT SAYING THAT ANYBODY HERE DOES] I tend to see something funny. I honestly started this thread because I just wanted to understand what people thought were the functions behind why some of us want to get to the point and some of us don't.

    but what is it that we are discussing, exactly?
    What is the point of this discussion?
    See the original post and another where I restate the objective.

    Is it to discuss the type of your friend
    , No, that just got tangled up in the discussion.

    why some individuals have issues making logical points when expressing themselves or something else such as discussion itself?
    What cognitive functions are behind why some people want to get to the point? What cognitive functions are behind why some people just want to express but not actually have any particular thing they are expressing.


    Now, a side note:

    I have probably spent more time here than I should have today, but I do thank each person who attempted to help me answer my questions. A lot of insight has been shared and I have come to believe that I understand the possible combinations of functions that produce each type of communication. I have tried to make sure that I acknowledged each person who took the time to answer my questions. I will consider all the info you've provided, view points, etc. I am a busy person. My time is valuable and I believe that each person's here is valuable. So being on this forum, participating in a discussion, actually means something to me. It has a purpose for me, a point. It's not just something I do to pass the time. I am interested in typology. It helps me as a writer. It helps me as an educator and as a self-defense instructor. Having said that, I may soon be absent from the forum as this weekend begins the spring tour season for me, so as of Friday, I may not be around much.

    So, once again, thanks everybody.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #55
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    double post.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #56
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Not interested in Je'ers stating their judgments like fact. To me, you are just one subjective person with one opinion. I need way more data than your singular evaluation, although that opinion is very valuable to me. And I'm not going to stand there and state my opinion like it's all facts either. The more voices, the better - in order to distill truth. The end goal of Ji I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes! The Js in my life do this too. I find it frustrating because I recoil at such blunt labels without explanation, as I naturally immediately apply them to internal quality. I've been having to learn how to suspend my own judgment of the J for making that judgment until I hear the whole story, because to me it seems so superficial. And it is - but that's what makes it okay to call something or someone "stupid", because it's not about their internal character.
    [If I’m understanding this correctly] I think actually that it is about their internal character- it’s just that Js need to go in the different direction. We need to go into communication ‘blunt’ end first. I think maybe with introverted perception, there’s waaaaaa-a-a-ay too many applications for that information. Je needs to go: Kingdom -> Phylum -> Class -> Order -> Family -> Genus. Information about the ‘family’ is useless to me until the kingdom, phylum, class and order hav been placed (and so on, any such variation in that direction). I can handle a couple of those being skipped- like I can estimate ‘phylum’ based on what’s being said about ‘order’….but it drives me nuts sometimes to be passed a bunch of something about ‘family’ without saying what ‘kingdom’ one is referring to. Because whatever is being said about ‘family’, or ‘genus’- my mind starts scanning like crazy and there are too many effing kingdoms out there to try to figure out which one we’re talking about. It’s like finding a needle in a haystack- which isn’t a bad thing, but just give me a ballpark of where that needle *probably* is within that haystack. Bouncing from context to context isn’t a big deal to Pe, but to Pi each context is a potential black hole/bottomless pit/entire universe within itself.

    Whereas Ji first tries to place the ‘genus’ and works its way up to figuring out which ‘kingdom’? I think there’s a strong tendency to take all the judgment required to go from ‘genus’ to ‘kingdom’- from the very beginning of evaluating a thing all the way to the end where the thing has been baked and thoroughly chewed and digested and can confidently called a fact(!)- and project that accumulation of judgment into when a Je’er is simply trying to begin the categorization process.

    There’s a skit by The State called The Bearded Men of Space Station 11 that perfectly exemplifies (imo) what it’s like to deal with Te. Unfortunately they monitor youtube pretty heavily for copyright violation so I can’t post it. But essentially: a high ranking officer shows up at Space Station 11 to announce that all men in space with beards will be declared aliens “because beards don’t grow in space.” He says this to a table seated full of bearded men. They look stunned, and keep saying things like, “…You’re kidding though, about ‘beards not growing in space’, right?” That’s the whole skit. Like, they can’t grasp how this guy is standing in front of them insisting beards don’t grow in space, when they’re sitting there with beards that have grown in space. I watched this with my son and we both had the same reaction: “Wow, if ever anything has ever perfectly exemplified why it’s difficult to deal with [my eNTJ ex husband, his father]…..It’s. This. Skit.”

    It takes a lot of work for me to realize Te assertions aren’t actually the end product they appear to be- they’re starting points. Even though I logically know this, it’s still hard for me….and I’m a total J, so I can only imagine how hard it is for a Pe’er to grasp the extent to which Je assertions aren’t as “I’M RIGHT AND THIS IS A FACT” as they appear to be. But they aren't.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I refer to that post so much, it wouldn’t surprise me if uumlau has started to regret the day he wrote it. And/or possibly put me on ignore. (But dang it, it’s a good explanation!)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #57
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Flatlander,

    I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to this thread, for lending your ideas and input. Thank you.

    So about my friend, I interact with her often and I am sure she is not an S and she is deifinitely not an Fe. I do see a lot of Ti and Ne at work in her daily life. At least, I think they are Ti and Ne.

    Of course it is possible that she could be mistyped.
    I don't ask that question purposelessly. I ask it when I think it's better than a distant possibility.

    Also, if I'm correct in seeing Si/Fe in her cognition, then INTP is a possible type (Ti Ne Si Fe).

    For all I know, you could be mistyped. I could be mistyped.
    The point is to figure enough out about yourself that you can get past the 'for all I know' stage and have at least a reasonable chance of having typed yourself correctly.

    So, whatever her type, she is socially awkward and in a group she puts people ill at ease. I think she wants to be relatable but doesn’t have a clue how to be.
    I might suggest socionics ILE for her? This sounds kind of like seeking capability with Fe, which I might expect from the type. And the way you put it, it sounds kind of conscious to her to do this.

    ILE is ENTp, Ne-Ti.

    Other option seems like ILI, with PoLR Fe. Meh, donno.

    She is clumsy and awkward [physically]. After an initial meeting, people are often put off by her.
    Inferior Sensation may fit the bill.

    Why did I complain about it?

    To lure you here, of course, and entangle you in this discussion. Apparently, it worked, because you're here.

    Actually, I didn’t mean to complain but if it came across that way, then to be blunt, it takes longer.
    Huh? What did you mean by the bolded?

    I interact with so many people, on any given day, that I sometimes get lazy with the ones who take the long scenic route to get to their destination.
    Sounds exhausting. All of it.

    And no, cutting and pasting to restructure isn't the same as reframing, exactly, but it does help me to reframe it in my mind as I go. It’s like a short cut.
    It's important to keep terms differentiated when talking about functions and their manifestations, to try to make it clear what each one is really doing, as much as you can. Otherwise you will outwardly misattribute things in ways that can confuse others.

    In my opinion, it's really important to be careful on a forum where people are trying to learn about typology - they are likely to get the wrong ideas from it, try to use them in psychoanalyzing others and probably make a lot of mistakes and increase misunderstandings. I've seen this happen, and it's not always bad for the typer who thinks because they will consider what they've learned and strive to refine their understanding, but many don't really think psychologically or are prone to getting caught in traps without even realizing it.

    Significant understanding...I hope to gain some of that. Perhaps we will still be on it when you return. If you don't mind, I would like to ask you by what means you arrived at your own type.
    I thought I was an INTP when I started out - I internet-tested as that type. I spent awhile muddling around descriptions on sites like typelogic and saw ideal images in the INTP and the INTJ but didn't understand how exactly they were reached, and wanted to figure it out.

    So I found out about functions, filled out a questionnaire on PerC and got typed as an INFJ, started thinking about Ni as a possibility alongside Ti and wondering how Fe would fit into my psyche. I went through a long process of simultaneously investigating functions to try to get to the idea of what they really are and how they compare and contrast to and work with each other, and reflecting on my mental life to get in touch with how I developed and what's really going on when I think. Investigating Enneagram also helped with this in a secondary way, because I came to understand where it is appropriate to separate motivation from function use and where it's not, how the two forces mingle and separate in the psyche. But in the end it comes down to understanding myself without the functions first, to see for myself how I work, and then using the functions as some external concepts that contribute to a map of what I see.

    And the map I came up with isn't as clear as 'I'm Ni Te Fi Se'. It's something like.. everpresent Ni with a T coloring that was ingrained through years of semi-consciously practicing the perspective for different reasons (role models in my life who are T, the added distance from the world it gave me, etc.), and can look like Ti or Te in response to different situations, F that shows up but I'm not so aware of or mostly become aware of at a more basic level, and this strident Se that's consciously black and white in refinement, all-important or not present. The Ni is quite nuanced, F lacks nuance relative to T, and Se can leave me helpless. The principle of polar dom/inf functions that tend to get extreme being paired with auxiliaries that undergo more individual development that might be differently defined - it works for me, because it matches a reality in which I see different people with different levels and types of mental development, but usually there's one perspective that will be identified with, put forth most strongly, and if the person is neurotic the inferior will show up in exotic ways.

    In MBTI by functions my closest alternative is INTJ, because I am indeed Ni dominant with T secondary. I'd actually rather a denotation like iNt, no J or P, as neither J nor P as behaviors apply perfectly to me on a consistent basis, and I don't put much stock in that indicator.

    It's been almost two years? since I started thinking about this stuff. By this point, I trust my own concepts of the functions pretty well, I've essentially gotten to their core and I can see what I think of as their manifestations. But I still explain my thinking on the forum when it seems needed because it leaves no room for debate except on the theoretical level (a la "That's not Fe!") and a proper justification put out there requires justification in return to make any response legitimate.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It takes a lot of work for me to realize Te assertions aren’t actually the end product they appear to be- they’re starting points. Even though I logically know this, it’s still hard for me….and I’m a total J, so I can only imagine how hard it is for a Pe’er to grasp the extent to which Je assertions aren’t as “I’M RIGHT AND THIS IS A FACT” as they appear to be. But they aren't.
    Heh, I hear you. Stating X = Y hardly seems like a starting point, that's for sure (vs even a slight variation X = Y?). Yet over the years, the realization has sunk in ...

    And of course INxP's are Te / Fe inferior; we only say Te / Fe stuff when pressed or stressed. So it usually comes out pissy (sorry for the word, best one I can think of). It's almost impossible not to project some internal guk onto what we hear since it goes through all the filters first before it hits our Te / Fe. The waters get muddy. You guys just sound so judge-y all the time! And we have to take the pointy end of the stick and work what is to us, backwards. After it poked us. Ouch!

    (lol all my mixed metaphors, gruesome!)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #59
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    If I'm having trouble explaining something sometimes, I actually like J people who say like 1 sentence which articulates or summarizes it perfectly. It's really pleasing.
    It is good active listening to repeat back what someone said to you in your own words (often a more concise version) so as to show how you understood them. I do this with people & appreciate when they do it with me in a way that is not trivializing or over-simplifying my point.

    I can go back & forth for awhile with those who do, because they'll repeatedly miss the point in their effort to shove it into a neat little summary which often has nothing to do with the point. But if they get it right, then it's refreshing to see someone, well got it right. With Je types, it seems like they have pre-defined, external categories they are shoving everything into, but you're trying to explain something which exists outside of those. It's not even categorizable... it's like asking a painter to arrange their strokes in some logical manner - huh?

    ----

    INFPs are tagged "harmonizer-clarifiers" by Keirsey I think (?) and this describes a listening style, among other things. In using good active listening, I think INFPs will do the "repeating back" thing a lot, and in doing so, we can clarify someone's own expression & draw out THEIR points in a way that is meaningful and accurate. This is very helpful to people who are not articulate or even good at understanding their own feelings, both emotional & rational feeling. I actually find that few other people do this kind of listening, especially well.

    However, I think Nardi's study shows Ti types are rather poor listeners. I suppose the tendency to tune people out because you don't find what they're saying "relevant" has its advantages, but the problem is when "relevancy" is always determined by the listener. It has to make sense according to a point they've pre-decided on, which will certainly make you miss someone's point if it's in a blindspot or covering ground that has never occurred to you.

    I often will feel that INTPs create a strawman a lot because of poor listening. They hear one thing & assume the larger point or the reason for a conclusion, & then they write it all off as a whole without listening to the rest for clarification. To me, this again looks like "stupid" or "poor reading comprehension". It seems INFJs may do this also....

    However, I often do start with an introduction of sorts when speaking to give an overview and then I may fill in details. But I think this was learned. Writing in essay style at times & using details is because of my education, and it's a Te aspect a fair amount of IxFPs probably learn through school.

    I'm more exploratory in communicating naturally though. Ne is more interactive - you pull ideas out of the moment, and use those to explain Ji, which is hard to communicate in a way others will grasp readily. So I can't connect it all in my head & then give a finished, polished product in speaking unless I'm writing & have the time & inclination to arrange things. When I write, it's out of order.... I often start a sentence, move to another, come back to finish the first, shift paragraphs around. It's hard to do that when speaking.... Sometimes it feels like communication should be spherical, in 3D, not this block method. I feel like one point branches out & then swings back around to form another - how can a paragraph structure that properly? It really cannot. I think Pe is more like dancing in the moment spontaneously & Je is like choreography (which I hate also).

    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    How are you sure that she's an INFP, if I might ask? That sounds to me like perceiver talk, especially Si/Ne as it seems to encourage simple experience-talk more, especially if she's just doing it with you alone. I might posit that she has Fe going on too, if she's doing it to create a friendly atmosphere with you. I've always found Fi to get more to its own point, at least as part of the dominant/inferior axis.

    Anyway, speaking as an Ni dom with auxiliary Thinking, I usually find my own points in things if the person didn't seem to make one themself. I do it by reframing what they're saying to get to the core of it, and if I'm not sure my thinking is accurate I ask if I'm correct. Otherwise if I'm interested I lead them deeper into the topic with questions, or I don't bother and let it go. You sound vaguely like you might be seeking Ni (Te?) for some reason, rather than thinking with it.
    I agree. Rambling story telling is common to Si types IMO. That's why too many details or rambling can pop up with INxPs & sometimes even ENxPs, but usually they are a part of something "greater". It's more like puzzle pieces being put together.

    Si tangents are very linear. One thought leads to the next, like falling dominoes. And it's often NOT connecting to a larger concept. It's just a stream, and the facts are valuable for their own sake (which is not very Ne or Fi at all). I have a hard time with seeing the point or meaning in what some SJs around me discuss, finding a lot of it "noise", but I'm sure there is a point & meaning & I strive to see it. Learning to grasp other styles of communication is a sign of being a good communicator yourself, IMO. If you're not getting someone's point, sometimes the problem is you're a poor listener or have poor comprehension.

    INFPs usually use tangents, rambles & details to explain a point or points that are very nuanced & difficult to explain in ordinary, direct langage. Fi is very nuanced. This is why I appreciate the active listening style I mentioned above & that this post describes also.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #60
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It is good active listening to repeat back what someone said to you in your own words (often a more concise version) so as to show how you understood them. I do this with people & appreciate when they do it with me in a way that is not trivializing or over-simplifying my point.

    I can go back & forth for awhile with those who do, because they'll repeatedly miss the point in their effort to shove it into a neat little summary which often has nothing to do with the point. But if they get it right, then it's refreshing to see someone, well got it right. With Je types, it seems like they have pre-defined, external categories they are shoving everything into, but you're trying to explain something which exists outside of those. It's not even categorizable... it's like asking a painter to arrange their strokes in some logical manner - huh?
    Yes frustrating when the message is not getting across, but really nice when it is
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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