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  1. #41
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I think "points" are learned through the context and connotation when the explicit details relate to the audience's interpretation of something. Sometimes I just talk for the sake of being known, and in those cases, a dry illustration of my perspective can suffice. If someone gives a long-winded explanation, it probably means they think they are misunderstood, which, from what I hear, is rather common for INFPs.
    Ginko,

    Are you an INFP then? I really don't know you yet and that is why I am asking. I do believe you are correct in saying it is common for INFPs as I am beginning to "see" that it is the case.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #42
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    a common Ne/Ni conco:
    Ne: [insert a ramble about Y X & Z]
    Ni: so your saying that Y = X/2+Z, meaning [insert Ne observation]..
    Ne: yes, and X=(Y-Z)*2
    Ni: but that means...
    Ne:.and ofcourse Z=Y-X-2
    Ni: so whats the point of all this?

    One possible solution for Ni users reading or listening to Ne content (here and elsewhere), as well as maximizing Ni/Ne dynamics, is to percieve that there will be multiply points, or rather meanings.. which the Ne author might be completely unaware of, and in fact would rather apriciate.

    I think to some extent thats what my INTJ father did with my ENFP mother and my ENTP self, and he seemed to enjoy it more often then getting frustrated by it.
    Okay, duely noted, muliple points, many of them unintential. Whether I get anything out of it or not is entirely up to me.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #43
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I thought the connections were "obvious" and connecting them was tedious & dull. It seemed to me someone had to be pretty stupid to not get it...

    &

    Anyhow, once I was informed that people weren't following me, I began to laboriously connect the dots, add more details, & probably over-explain. Now you have a wall-o-texter.... Be careful what you ask for.

    &

    To me this looks like "stupid" again. And when Je types make points, I admit I tend to ignore them. I consider the info & decide for myself what it means.
    This. Me making the connections is what I call "chewing your food for you". I don't want someone to chew mine for me, so I am sure not gonna chew yours for you, nor do I really wish to - I used to feel it very lazy of others to expect this kind of nutritional delivery.

    And @bold: agreed 100%. Not interested in Je'ers stating their judgments like fact. To me, you are just one subjective person with one opinion. I need way more data than your singular evaluation, although that opinion is very valuable to me. And I'm not going to stand there and state my opinion like it's all facts either. The more voices, the better - in order to distill truth. The end goal of Ji I think.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #44
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Ginko,

    Are you an INFP then? I really don't know you yet and that is why I am asking. I do believe you are correct in saying it is common for INFPs as I am beginning to "see" that it is the case.
    I am INFP.

  5. #45
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Edit - haha, I'm reworking my post to get to the point!

    As an overall point, I believe "getting to the point" is positively correlated with Je strength and Ni strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by @Ene
    I don't know if it's an issue of more or less information as it is rambling as opposed to focused information.
    I suspect that people with strong Pe/Ji usage prefer more cross-contextual application of Pe information with the goal of refining Ji structure. In terms of usefulness, Je prioritizes initiation of external action, while Ji prioritizes a crystallized inner structure of how to respond to circumstances, as well as understanding of other internal structures. So for Ji, the more varied information we test against our judgment frames, the better our judgment becomes.

    If Je/Pi, on the other hand, seeks to create external structure and loosen internal structure, and a huge amount of varied external information would essentially be the antithesis of that.

    Ni in particular seems to prefer concision, as well. Both Ni and Si distill, but Si seems more comfortable with a fair amount of discrete points, while Ni seems to prefer to identify one point. It may have to do with N being more conceptual in nature, and seeking to include all things real or not, while S is more practical and would prefer to deal with actually exists, without trying to rope in the non-existent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    That's what I gather from my INFP friend. I want so badly to say to her, "Oh, for cryin' out loud already...get to the point!" But then I look at her and realize that the seems to be the point. And I don't do it, because it seems to do her good just to talk about pointless stuff.
    Well, that sounds boring for you! It seems to me that there should be some way of maximizing the communication to meet both of you. If you know you're talking with an INFP, you could probably ask up front what her overall impression of whatever she's talking about is, and her Ne and Te should help with that. You could also try to listen less for a point and more for the experience, trying to visualize yourself as her in the situation. Could be challenging, but at least maybe it would make it more interesting for you.

    So, maybe that's what my friend is trying to do? Get the "feel" of an experience across to me?
    Maybe, yes. Fi can be incredibly hard to articulate, just like Ni... it's like trying to catch water with a screen... My ISFJ actually did end up understanding what I was trying to convey - he pulled up a Google image that fit it exactly!

    I think as Fi users we also like to talk about experiences to go back through our judgments to see how sound they were, and to have others listen so that they can add their own perceptions, which might show us new information we didn't think of at the time that may change our judgment of the situation. For example, yesterday one of my bosses was in an awful mood, and I happened to mess up on something in front of him. He gave me a lecture and said that I don't take personal responsibility, an impression which does not fit with my perception of myself. (I feel like I admit to messing up all the time IRL, lol!) I spoke to my ISFJ later, going through the whole situation, and he laughed and said he'd received that same lecture with that same exact accusation from that same boss back when he worked with me. That clarified to me that I shouldn't be so concerned about the possibility of me not taking responsibility, as evidently it's more an element of my boss's own perception than an actual reflection of me.

    Hmmm....good point. haha...thanks.
    Thank you for the responses!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Here's a good example: my INTJ daughter or ESTJ husband will pronounce that person X or situation X is "stupid" or "ridiculous". Am I just supposed to accept that at face value? No. I need the story, I need to hear the details, I need to appreciate the context if I am going to provide any decent alternative or counter-point or solution to their judgement. I might agree with their assessment by the end, or provide a useful less "charged" viewpoint. At any rate, I want the details. I need the details.
    Yes! The Js in my life do this too. I find it frustrating because I recoil at such blunt labels without explanation, as I naturally immediately apply them to internal quality. I've been having to learn how to suspend my own judgment of the J for making that judgment until I hear the whole story, because to me it seems so superficial. And it is - but that's what makes it okay to call something or someone "stupid", because it's not about their internal character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    FWIW, it bothers me a lot less with ENFPs than ENTPs. I really only run into the problem with ENFPs when I'm trying to offer assistance, and trying to single out a root cause to act on. After a few minutes of talking, eventually the ENFP will just throw up their hands and tell me, "IT'S ALL THE THINGS, OK??? ALL THE THINGS!!!!" I'm probably as frustrating to them as they are to me, tbh.
    Frustrated frustrating ENFP, lol. I suspect the reason for that is probably you're trying to identify a Te cause to act on and their problem is really in Fi - which for us comes before Te, so we can't decide how to Te act until we decide what we Fi want. I don't know about other ENFPs, but I rarely experience Te dissonance. Though if I know what I want to do, Te users are SO helpful.

    ENTPs, otoh, it's like they derive a sense of superiority from the inability to stay on topic. With rare exception, they're usually not worth the time to communicate with as it usually just devolves into conflict.
    I doubt that's their intention, but I know what you mean.

    I actually think this loops back to what I mentioned before with Ji structure and Pe integration. For ENxPs, it's pleasing to lock that new information into the structure - and encountering new information that doesn't fit the structure forces you to improve your structure, so it's annoying, but it's a good challenge. ENTPs throw out lots of Ne scenarios because it forces checking of the Ti structure - it is sort of a superiority if they can present a new scenario that eludes the other person's Ti structure. They have to stretch their Ne to do that, though, so it's challenging to them, too.

    It's like sparring, I guess. For us it's "training" and it's useful because it improves our Ji response in a padded environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've also read that INFPs often may use terminology or reference things others are not familiar with, assuming that they are, which leaves people confused. I'm not sure why we may do this, but I know I do this, especially with areas I have some knowledge in (using specialized terminology assuming everyone knows them). I think it's some tert Si thing & giving the benefit of the doubt.
    My ISFJ does this all the time. I'm actually starting to learn formal names!

    I remember some smart INTJ explaining that Ni users identify and categorize things by function instead of by static characteristics, which could be a major reason for information seeming irrelevant across Ni-Si lines.

    Being an NP, there's a lot of crossing of contexts. You create a relationship between two things to explain an abstract idea. A story is often, again, illustrative. And we're not necessarily going off topic... we just didn't spell out the connection for you. If given enough time, I think it wraps back around & you have quite ingenious point on your hands .
    Yes! It all comes back to the structure. We'll loop back because everything is connected. And how pleasing, to have a cohesive picture of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [eta: this post still effectively nails it for me, why INFPs can sound like "Emo emo. Emo. Emo? Emo." to me.]

  6. #46
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I am becoming more and more aware of just how non-Fi dom I really am and to tell the truth, sometimes I have to cut and paste Fi-dom posts and take them apart in order to try to get to the heart of what is being said [and that takes so much time, that I have a hard time posting replies to a lot of what is said here] and to my utter amazement, there often is no “point” or 'heart' of the matter and I get a bit frustrated because I feel like it is aimless wandering, but of course, it's not. I have discovered this with my INFP friend in real life; she often spends a long time telling me about something. I keep waiting for the point, but there is no point. She is just sharing an experience with me. Maybe that is more a P thing than an Fi thing. I don’t know.

    Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said, that it needs to be leading up to something, to produce something or is it a result of the J-function? Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?
    How are you sure that she's an INFP, if I might ask? That sounds to me like perceiver talk, especially Si/Ne as it seems to encourage simple experience-talk more, especially if she's just doing it with you alone. I might posit that she has Fe going on too, if she's doing it to create a friendly atmosphere with you. I've always found Fi to get more to its own point, at least as part of the dominant/inferior axis.

    Anyway, speaking as an Ni dom with auxiliary Thinking, I usually find my own points in things if the person didn't seem to make one themself. I do it by reframing what they're saying to get to the core of it, and if I'm not sure my thinking is accurate I ask if I'm correct. Otherwise if I'm interested I lead them deeper into the topic with questions, or I don't bother and let it go. You sound vaguely like you might be seeking Ni (Te?) for some reason, rather than thinking with it.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  7. #47
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    If "getting to the point" is a Te and non-Beta thing, then I'm pretty much typology-fucked.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I need to know where things are going if it's going to be a long account. It helps me be patient and enjoy the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Ideally, yes. My problem is finding the relevance. There’s some reason they’re saying it. Until I know what that reason is, they’re just saying a bunch of *stuff* (that I’ll never remember or be able to pay attention to, because I have no idea where it fits). If you give me the grocery cart before you start passing all sorts of *stuff* to me, then I’ll have somewhere to put it. Otherwise I’ll only be able to ‘hold’ one or two of those things (and if I can’t figure out what those two things are for, I’ll put them down as soon as I get distracted and forget about them as well).
    Blammo, this all resonates for me, too.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    How are you sure that she's an INFP, if I might ask?
    You might and she took the test. (Also, this might be beside the point, but if you spent one day with her out looking for fairy rings and talking to cats and worrying about spontaneous human combustion, you'd understand.)

    That sounds to me like perceiver talk, especially Si/Ne as it seems to encourage simple experience-talk more, especially if she's just doing it with you alone.
    She doesn't do it to me alone.


    I might posit that she has Fe going on too, if she's doing it to create a friendly atmosphere with you.
    That's a good thought. But, that is just how she communicates with everybody.

    I've always found Fi to get more to the point, at least as part of the dominant/inferior axis.
    Hmmm...then maybe it's not soley an Fi thing. Maybe it is a combination of factors.

    Anyway, speaking as an Ni dom with auxiliary Thinking, I usually find my own points in things if the person didn't seem to make one themself.
    I do this, too. I'm not saying that I don't or that I'm not capable of it, only that it means
    reframing what they're saying to get to the core of it
    , Hence, that is why I cut and paste and restructure what is said in order to get to the bottom of it. Sadly, in a conversation, I can't always do that and I have to ask for clarification or else as you say,
    I don't bother and let it go.
    , which is regrettable, probably.

    You sound vaguely like you might be seeking Ni (Te?) for some reason, rather than thinking with it.
    , just want to understand how they influence communication styles.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #49
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    You might and she took the test. (Also, this might be beside the point, but if you spent one day with her out looking for fairy rings and talking to cats and worrying about spontaneous human combustion, you'd understand.)
    That could be the result of other functions, too. Inferior N in either direction. Even inferior S. Dominant Fe and inferior Ti. It all depends on why she expresses herself this way.

    That sounds to me like perceiver talk, especially Si/Ne as it seems to encourage simple experience-talk more, especially if she's just doing it with you alone.
    She doesn't do it to me alone.
    I said 'with', not 'to'. If she's doing it with a group of people it might still be Si-Fe-like, especially if she thinks she's sharing something relatable.


    I might posit that she has Fe going on too, if she's doing it to create a friendly atmosphere with you.
    That's a good thought. But, that is just how she communicates with everybody.
    The point about it being 'you' wasn't meant as you alone, but general terminology.


    I've always found Fi to get more to the point, at least as part of the dominant/inferior axis.
    Hmmm...then maybe it's not soley an Fi thing. Maybe it is a combination of factors.
    Seeing as this is how things usually work in the psyche, it's likely. But if it's function-related, I'd still posit it isn't necessarily Fi, and she may be incorrectly typed.

    Anyway, speaking as an Ni dom with auxiliary Thinking, I usually find my own points in things if the person didn't seem to make one themself.
    I do this, too. I'm not saying that I don't or that I'm not capable of it, only that it means ,
    Then why would you complain about not being able to find the point?

    reframing what they're saying to get to the core of it
    Hence, that is why I cut and paste and restructure what is said in order to get to the bottom of it. Sadly, in a conversation, I can't always do that and I have to ask for clarification or else as you say,
    Cutting and pasting to restructure isn't the same as reframing, exactly, in the Ni sense. Restructuring has as much or more to do with T, and what you did here is vaguely reminiscent of Ti because it cuts in these individualistic places that don't even conform to the structure of sentences or the points I made themselves, but rather to the structure of your own thoughts so that you can respond to them. Reframing in the Ni is more like this:

    Person A says: I'm this, that, and the other.
    Mind goes: This, that and the other really means belonging to X structure/having X in common.
    I say: So you're saying you're X?

    It's reframing to find the point of connection between disparity, or the dynamics that connect separate points. It can get much more complex than that but it always leads back to an underlying point.

    I don't bother and let it go.
    , which is regrettable, probably.
    I don't continue debate or conversation when there's no significant understanding to be gained from it, and I tend to see right through to whether I will find this or not.

    , just want to understand how they influence communication styles.
    If we're still on it, I'll go into it later, I have to run.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  10. #50
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    You might and she took the test. (Also, this might be beside the point, but if you spent one day with her out looking for fairy rings and talking to cats and worrying about spontaneous human combustion, you'd understand.)
    That could be the result of other functions, too. Inferior N in either direction. Even inferior S. Dominant Fe and inferior Ti. It all depends on why she expresses herself this way.

    That sounds to me like perceiver talk, especially Si/Ne as it seems to encourage simple experience-talk more, especially if she's just doing it with you alone.
    She doesn't do it to me alone.
    I said 'with', not 'to'. If she's doing it with a group of people it might still be Si-Fe-like, especially if she thinks she's sharing something relatable.


    I might posit that she has Fe going on too, if she's doing it to create a friendly atmosphere with you.
    That's a good thought. But, that is just how she communicates with everybody.
    The point about it being 'you' wasn't meant as you alone, but general terminology.


    I've always found Fi to get more to the point, at least as part of the dominant/inferior axis.
    Hmmm...then maybe it's not soley an Fi thing. Maybe it is a combination of factors.
    Seeing as this is how things usually work in the psyche, it's likely. But if it's function-related, I'd still posit it isn't necessarily Fi, and she may be incorrectly typed.

    Anyway, speaking as an Ni dom with auxiliary Thinking, I usually find my own points in things if the person didn't seem to make one themself.
    I do this, too. I'm not saying that I don't or that I'm not capable of it, only that it means ,
    Then why would you complain about not being able to find the point?

    reframing what they're saying to get to the core of it
    Hence, that is why I cut and paste and restructure what is said in order to get to the bottom of it. Sadly, in a conversation, I can't always do that and I have to ask for clarification or else as you say,
    Cutting and pasting to restructure isn't the same as reframing, exactly, in the Ni sense. Restructuring has as much or more to do with T, and what you did here is vaguely reminiscent of Ti because it cuts in these individualistic places that don't even conform to the structure of sentences or the points I made themselves, but rather to the structure of your own thoughts so that you can respond to them. Reframing in the Ni is more like this:

    Person A says: I'm this, that, and the other.
    Mind goes: This, that and the other really means belonging to X structure/having X in common.
    I say: So you're saying you're X?

    It's reframing to find the point of connection between disparity, or the dynamics that connect separate points. It can get much more complex than that but it always leads back to an underlying point.

    I don't bother and let it go.
    , which is regrettable, probably.
    I don't continue debate or conversation when there's no significant understanding to be gained from it, and I tend to see right through to whether I will find this or not.

    , just want to understand how they influence communication styles.
    If we're still on it, I'll go into it later, I have to run.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

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